Bachendri Pal, the first Indian woman to summit Everest, trained as a teacher, but got her higher education in the mountains, which continue to teach her about potential, limits and humility. Holly catches up with her on the mountainside where she's putting managers of Tata Steel through the paces in a teamwork training camp. They sneak off for a hike, where Bachendri fills in Holly about how she veered from the predictable path and where she's headed next.

Click below to read what she has to say about:

• learning from nature
• girls in India
• changing her path
• summiting
• surviving an avalanche
• woman power
• her dreams

Holly: Every year this camp starts at the end of March?

BP: We come during summer every year, and conduct a series of two- to three-week programs.

Holly: So this is their first day?

BP: Yeah, so we stay for 4 or 5 days, getting acclimatized, and getting mentally and physically fit for the climb. After 4 or 5 days then we start hiking from here.

Holly: So it makes them better managers, and better people too?

BP: Yeah, and [helps them] come up with the determination that they can overcome any obstacles with the help of each other. If we are together any obstacle, any problem, and difficulties can be overcome.

Holly: And eventually they're gonna hike a 14,000 ft. peak?

BP: [To Trainees] Hello! Good Morning! Nice to see you all at Base Camp. So how may of you are ready? How was the journey? Adventurous?

Holly: Bachendri, what's in store for them this afternoon?

BP: They will be going for height gain, to get acclimated. They will climb up to 7,000 feet. This camp is at 4,000 to 5,000 feet.

Holly: [To Trainees] Are you guys worried about this? She's going to put you through the drill.

Trainee: No real apprehensions, we are quite looking forward to it.

Holly: How was your first sleep out?

Trainee: It was quite refreshing, we were told about the snakes and all this, we were quite afraid, but it was refreshing.

Holly: We'll ask you again at the end of the day÷OK? [To Bachendri] Do the mountains feel holy to you too?

BP: Oh yes, yes, I really worship the mountains, they teach us so many things, I respect every mountain.

Holly: What do they teach you?

BP: To discover myself, what I am. While climbing a mountain, I come to know about myself, what scares me, and how I deal with my confidence and my determination. I consider nature is not only a great teacher, but as a great purifier… it simplifies the problems, and purifies our paths.

Holly: Is it still teaching you new lessons?

BP: Ah, yes, yes. Without telling anything, you know, the silence way. Be with nature and you learn so many things, you discover so many things about yourself and if I'm moving with a team, we discover so many things about the team members also.

Holly: Like what?

BP: The team will, they have real changes, their attitude changes, it takes place as we go. In a difficult situation, in a critical situation, wherever we are, some people we find very helpful, but some people they are really selfish. You know so many things we discover in them.

Holly: What's the most important thing you discovered about yourself?

BP: My potential, to believe in myself — that teaches you to look up and look straight in your life, really. With guts of great and confidence, that is very important, wherever you are — an officer, an administrator, an engineer, a distributor, to have that confidence, to know your potentials, that gives you tremendous self-respect also.

Holly: Have you ever lost it, has there ever been a time when you lost that confidence?

BP: Yeah, but I get inspired, whatever I've done in the past, whatever challenges, in a sporting way I have done in the past. So I guard that inner strength.

Holly: In Leading Out, and the books that we are both familiar with, that's a common theme, you know, you see so much personal spirit and power gained through the relationship to the outdoors.

BP: Ah, yes, yes, yes, that strong interpersonal relationship, we develop. Well I really enjoy being here with the people who have come from different situations. [There are] so many things you discover, the human psychology, how they behave when they are in difficulties, when they are in comforts.

Holly: What have you learned about yourself?

BP: I'm also learning so many things, to be with them, so it's learning for me also. And keeping myself fit.

Holly: You climbed the 14,000 with your team…

BP: Yeah, last time I went with the group to the top, it was a very good experience.

Holly: What do you think girls in India get from knowing your story; do you think it's helpful? Because you're a bit of a role model, I'm sure.

BP: Yeah, the country has honored me in more ways than one. Initially it was very difficult for me, I come from a small village, so taking mountaineering as a sport, it was unusual. So, to step out in the beginning from that small village was very difficult. Nobody could understand what for I'm doing all these things. So, once I made a place for myself and lots of publicity and everything was done, many other women of my village, they also followed me, and when I went to Everest again in 1993, four or five girls went from my village. That shows that they got inspired. They won't get encouragement from their family and all. They think that for women, the better thing for them is to get a job like a teacher and all, to be with their family and that type of understanding we have, you know, of Indians, but those girls are very determined and want to carve a place for themselves. It definitely takes a courageous decision and they go for that.

Holly: What do you think you would have done, if you hadn't started climbing?

BP: Oh, where would I be now, working somewhere…I did get a lot of education training for teaching, so I would have been a teacher somewhere.

Holly: Very different life. Did your parents encourage you to climb?

BP: No they were not happy, earlier they were not convinced by the mountaineering idea, as a sport or as a career. They tried to stop me, not to go for this risky sport. I was a sport person also before I joined these mountaineering courses and all. I was an athlete, so all this encouraged me to do something more than what I did in the past, so I was really determined. And my mother, she was against all this, she said mountaineering is a risky sport, but my elder brother, he had done a mountaineering course, and he had an accident in the mountains, so my parents were very scared of mountaineering.

Holly: And did you start climbing when you were in school?

BP: After I finished my education, then when I was unemployed, I was sitting at home and I had enough time to do this mountaineering. We had no idea about this mountaineering as a sport, some renowned mountaineers visited our village, when they find that we are educated but unemployed and sitting at home, they encouraged us. They said, 'Why are you people sitting here? We have a studio very near to our village, and why don't you go there and take mountaineering as your career?' So I got inspired by him.

Holly: So the mountains were your learning higher education.

BP: I started my mountaineering my career in 1981. I did a mountaineering course, then I got selected for the Everest expedition.

Holly: Were your parents supportive?

BP: Well initially they were not happy, actually they said, 'You should look for some job [instead of] mountaineering, this very risky sport, my mother is very protective, see, she doesn't want her children to go away….

Holly: Climbing Everest, I think that's normal…What do you fear?

BP: I never thought of this. I have to think.

Holly: Maybe you don't fear anything; maybe that's the result of climbing Everest a few times. But I don't know, if you have an answer, I would like to hear it. Because I think fear stops people from chasing their dreams, and you're someone who has chased your dreams, so I think people like me, we learn from the answer to this question. Should we come back to it?

BP: Yeah.

Holly: Okay. Earlier on, you were talking very personally about how mountains created confidence in you, and I read that you said actually, one of the harder things you did was not necessarily climbing Everest, but as you said, getting out of your four walls, you know, changing what maybe what life was going to deliver to you…you were going to be married at a young age, I think I read, and then your life took a turn when you started climbing?

BP: Well yeah, when I was unemployed, after completion of my education, and I was sitting at home, my parents and all the relatives were forcing me to get married, but once I started climbing mountains, there was no looking back and I got a very good job. I was given a separate department and they made me the head of the department, they empowered me. And I kept doing one after the next expedition and all.

Holly: What do you think of these managers that you're training, what do you think, what are you teaching them?

BP: We are teaching them that without teamwork you can't do anything, so even when taking them to the top of their top, they realize that after climbing that individually they are nothing, but in a team, they are really powerful experience and nothing can stop them. Nothing is impossible if they are in a team, so how to manage time, how you define problems, we give them task, and taking responsibilities and then they are given trust in each other, and such exposure also helps them to bring that interpersonal diversity also to become very strong.

Holly: What do you think of the world's reaction to the Everest tragedy two years ago? I mean, it, you know, engaged the entire world.

BP: Yeah, we have to take it very seriously, but not as a competition, without any proper training, without any knowledge about the mountain, and without the proper respect of the mountains, you should not make it a race to the top. We must know about our limitations and give due respect to the mountain, so it should not become like a race, a competition, by who can reach the top, I think that we have got that lesson, the mountaineers.

Holly: Does humor ever help get you off the mountain?

BP: You have that sense of humor, but beyond that your whole concentration is on your safe landing, and you're thinking about it, dreaming about the route, snow, avalanche, crevasses, and certain things. If you are one step wrong, it's without any effort; you are in the China side or Nepal side, so your whole concentration towards your safety.

Holly: We were talking about what it must actually feel like to be approaching the summit, or at whatever spot on Everest, you know, what is going through your head, I mean, are you actually thinking?

BP: When I was on top?

Holly: Did you think you would make it?

BP: No, I was not sure, but I was confident about my physical condition and mentally I was very strong, but I had no idea how far I had to go. You are totally dependent on the weather condition. After the Hillary Step, a very narrow edge, I was very excited, and I took only after that, only five or 10 minutes to reach the summit, and when I was on top, my whole hopes were on getting back safely. I could not enjoy on top. So I was there for 45 minutes, we placed that small image of goddesses on top and something given by the friends, also I placed on top. And we took photographs of each other, with our Indian Nepalese tricolor flag, but my whole conscious was, will I be back safely, to get to camp.

Holly: Did you enjoy it?

BP: After coming back.

Holly: I thought you might say that.

BP: That was when I realized that I did something.

Holly: But in the moment, it wasn't any fun?

BP: Yes, well I had to suffer from snow blindness also. While climbing my goggles were fogging all the time, and I had to clean the goggles and I was finding this very difficult. Since it was cloudy, I removed the glasses, and then my colleague, they warned me, you will spoil your eyes. And then I put them on again, but I had to suffer after coming back. I could not sleep all night. Everybody was celebrating that we succeeded, and the radio news was coming…messages from Ms. Indira Gandhi, from Delhi, so what I could not, all night I was crying and crying.

Holly: Because of your eyes?

BP: Because of the pain.

Holly: Did you do any Punjab, any prayer, on the way up?

BP: Yea, I did Punjab on top. I remembered my parents first and then, the first message was sent to Mrs. Ira Gandhi. Because she was there, she was the moving force behind that expedition. '84 Everest Expedition.

Holly: And what did she say to you when you spoke to her?

BP: So after coming back, she invited all the team members to her home for a tea party and she asked me, what do you want to do now? So I said I would like to, I wanted to promote this adventure sport in the youth, but she said, why not rural women? … She said that we need a hundred Bachendris. She was very intelligent and inspiring. And she used to say that adventures should become a part of everyone's life, and it is the whole difference between being fully alive and just existing. Before we left for the mountains, she said all these things, a message for the youth and women.

Holly: Do you think Indians take risks?

BP: They try to take soft option and all, because the parents are very protective, they don't want their children to take any risk and hardship, they try to avoid. If it is compulsory, there is no other way, then they take it. But now some schools they have this type of program, as that extracurricular part of the educations system. So now many schools, they are coming forward and sending their children, students for such sport, adventure.

***

BP: So overcoming that life and death situation, and that person who was sharing my tent, he came out, and he luckily got a Swiss knife in his pocket, so he had to tear that open, the tent. And first he came out and he dug me out, he removed the ice melts on top of my body and that time the outside people, everybody was crying and all of them were very panicked. Some had some broken ribs, leg fracture, head injury; some people were vomiting their blood, coming out, very painful scene. So we spent that night there, then we informed our leader and he sent a rescue team. The next day, early morning at 5:00, that rescue team reached our camp, and then we carried that injured person down to 22,000 feet. Then our leader here had an interview with everybody: so what do you want to do? All the members, some of them were injured, but some were in a state of shock and they decided to go back and then he asked me, so I said, 'Since I have overcome this, I am alive, now after this life and death situation, I must try once again.' And that decision was the turning point of my success story. Some new people, they joined us, and at that time, I really realized that women have that power, the tolerance, the patience, what we call this women power, to keep going. And all the male members, they went back to base camp, so the leader told me stay with them too, and then some new people, they joined me and we went again and after one week, it was one week after I was on top, literally on top of the world.

Holly: Is there a Hindi word for women power?

BP: Narishakti, nari means women, power, shakti.

Holly: Isn't a goddess named shakti too?

BP: Shakti yeah, Durga. I was also carrying an image of goddess Durga, shakti, the power, on top of every — I placed that image on top of Everest.

Holly: Now aren't you supposed to carry a very light load?

BP: Yeah.

Holly: And you were carrying a little goddess up there?

BP: Yeah, and first they had given something to a place on top of Mount Everest, which I was carrying with me.

Holly: I hope it was small … in general, what do think the mountains teach you?

BP: You come to discover your limitations.

Holly: Your limitations?

BP: Once you overcome all these things, the success is one of your weaknesses also, weak points. The success is not only in reaching the top, but overcoming those shortcomings and your limitations.

Holly: Do mountains teach you about humility?

BP: Yes, yes, that's why I say, we feel so small. We feel very insignificant in front of the mountains. I consider myself as very small in front of the Himalayas and mountains, so that teaches us to be humble in life.

Holly: What is your dream? You've lived one already, what's your next one?

BP: One of my big dreams was to lead on all-women expedition, and to give other women also that opportunity to be there where I was standing, one day, so that I have done in 1993, that was the biggest challenge for me. Leading the all women Everest expedition, that was very successful and seven other women also reached the same height, 18 total.

Holly: Some women from your village, right?

BP: Yeah, yeah. And 18 people reached the summit, including the sherpas and all, they reached the summit, safely and successfully, it was a very big dream for me. But now in the future, I want to have my own institution, somewhere here in the mountains. I purchased a small piece of land, so there I want to give this training, I want to share whatever challenges I have taken in the past, whatever I have done. Whatever experience I have gained, I want to share this with the younger generation, for character building and to be courageous, to be independent, enterprising, and to have belief in themselves, to know their full potential, to be resourceful, not to look always for shortcuts and soft options.

Holly: Rural people have even less access, right? Can you talk about the town you grew up in, the village that you grew up in?

BP: That was a very small village; about 14 or 15 families we had there.

Holly: That must have been quite a homecoming then. When you summited Everest, the whole town must have come to the party.

BP: Yeah.

Holly: What do you think about risk?

BP: The biggest risk in life is not to take risks. If you want to achieve something, you have to take risks, because no pain, no gain, so if you want to be here, we took some risk, to be here, so risk, it's a part of life. If you want to achieve something, you have to take risk, challenges in life, that's the way of life.

Holly: What's the biggest risk you've taken?

BP: To go for climbing, and then Everest, and then making others also go, climb.

Holly: Is there an interest in the rural girls to learn to climb, the rural girls that you saw today? Are they interested in climbing?

BP: yeah, now, now many people in this area they are taking mountaineering as a career and they are getting more interested in mountaineering. Initially, very few people were, they used to think that 'we are mountain people, why should we go for some formal training? Why should we? Everyday we are climbing some mountains, cutting some grass, bringing some firewood,' and people used to tell me also, 'we have been doing that since our childhood, now why should we go for some formal training? We are trained mountaineers, we are born mountaineers.' But now they have seen that those who are good at mountaineering, they are getting good jobs with salary and all, and they are getting some publicity and highlights.