INT: Tell me the story of Freedom's Journal.
FG: Freedom's was the first black newspaper founded in New York City in 1827 -- that's a long time ago -- before the Civil War. And the same questions we debate today were related to the reasons why that paper was formulated. Should blacks assimilate, which is what one of the founders, Samuel Cornish, a Presbyterian minister, thought. Or should they seek to colonize themselves in Africa, to repatriate themselves, separation or integration. We're still talking about it.
FG: Freedom's Journal was founded so the black people would have a forum in which they could discuss the issues that affected them. As the founders said, we want to speak for ourselves. And one of the main issues was whether they should stay in the United States as Americans and to fight for assimilation and for their rights or whether they should colonize in Africa, return to Africa and, ah, try to establish themselves in the homeland because they were never going to be treated right in this country. But it was a --also a way of educated blacks staying in touch with each other, exchanging ideas, and also with those sympathetic whites who supported their cause. Founded well before the end of slavery, slavery was a dominant issue in those discussions at that time. But they also tried to point up the accomplishments of blacks. Little was known about what blacks had done, but they also, ah, have positive stories.

INT: Talk about the explosion of black papers after the Civil War.
FG: After the Civil War there was an enormous burst of energy, the desire to communicate, a desire to connect with black people establishing newspapers. I mean any town, even tiny ones, organizations had their own papers, churches, religious groups. It was their first opportunity to use the written word without fear of reprisal because blacks had been forbidden to learn how to -- to read and write, ah, during times of slavery. So many were established, some large, some small, and many extremely literate, that before the end of Reconstruction in 1890, 575 black newspapers had been established for varying lengths of time. Some were quite small, just a little church sheet. Some were short-lived. Some were -- had very tiny circulation, but people did it. They wanted to reach out to each other and they wanted to use the power of the press. They understood even then how important the press could be, that it could be a weapon for them in their quest for their rights.

INT: In the redemption period, at the end of Reconstruction, what happened to black papers in the South?
FG: Well, many were forced to change their tone. They had to become much more conciliatory or they were just run out of business in many cases. They were -- people were intimidated into seizing publication. And there was less activity under those circumstances because, hey, people were takin' their lives in their hands sometimes when they spoke out.

INT: Talk about the importance of cartooning to black newspapers.
FG: Cartoons had a special role in black newspapers because it gave people a chance to look at slices of their own lives and to see themselves, ah, to see their own humor, to see themselves depicted sympathetically, in contrast to the watermelon-eatin' images that prevailed in the mainstream press. Also, ah, they could be used, ah, to enlighten, to educate. There was a whole range of cartoons from the hilarious single panels to the storytelling cartoons, to the cartoons that told about your history, ah, so black people could look at it and understand who they were and where they'd come from by seeing in a graphic detail with few words -- it didn't even have to read too much -- to those that gave people good numbers they could play and might hit on. And that was also one of the reasons for the popularity of cartoonin' before the days of the lottery. (Laughs)

INT: Talk about Sonny Boy Sam.
FG: One of the most popular features in The Pittsburgh Courier was Sonny Boy Sam, which is a cartoon. In fact, a lot of people bought the paper not to read what was goin' on, but to see what the numbers were in Son--Sonny Boy Sam. Ah, this was before the lottery and people would get those little three digits and they'd pick them up. Sonny Boy, which was a funny cartoon in its own way, by a couple of guys, brothers, had a little number tucked in the shirt collar, a little number tucked in a -- a piece of a tablecloth, little numbers tucked in there. And once I asked the cartoonist who created Sonny Boy, I said, "Holloway" -- his name was Wilbur Holloway. I said, "Hollie, where you get those numbers? People say they hittin'." He said, "Well, I just make them up myself."
FG: The numbers in Sonny Boy Sam were the same sort of numbers that people play on the lottery now, except they were all three digits, easy to fit, easy to find. And people were searchin' for those 'cause they wanted money and that was the only way they could hit it big.

INT: Were those lucky numbers?
FG: Oh, these were all -- these were supposed to be lucky numbers. Ah, sometimes people thought that relatives, whenever they were dead, they'd send them so they could get some money. I thought for years that, ah, Holloway had some special mystics gifts that was in touch with the beyond. And I said, "What -- Hollie, where you get these numbers? People say they hit on your numbers." He said, "Well, you know, I just make them up. Whatever comes to my mind, I just put it in there." I never told anybody because then they might have been disillusioned by them.

INT: Talk about the influence of J.A. Rogers.
FG: J.A. Rogers probably had one of the biggest classrooms in the country because he taught people like me about black history when you could not find a book about black history in your local library and when nothing was taught in the schools. He, ah, not only wrote a column, "Your History", where he -- he was self-taught, we have to remember -- he came out with some astounding truths. Everybody was black. Beethoven had black blood and Napoleon might have had black blood and if he didn't have it, Josephine certainly did. And about the Pyramids being built because all the Egyptians we'd seen in the movies were white. Ah, later on we found that several of the things that J.A. Rogers had come up with were, ah, validated by other historians. He also used to produce a little cartoon called "Your History" and, ah, an artist named Sammy Mallay did the visuals but Rogers would have these little nuggets of information about black history and Tom Bethune, blind Tom Bethune, the piano progidy (sic) -- prodigy, the first time I heard about Blind Tom was reading J.A. Rogers. And it gave us a lift. It was somethin' we couldn't find in school and we couldn't find in the library. And he might have been self-taught, but he was a man who had a mission and I think he carried it out very well. Ah, he wrote a number of books. Some of them might have duplicated others ...

INT: Talk about objectivity and the black press.
FG: The black press never pretended to be objective because it didn't see the -- that white press or the main press, mainstream press, being objective. Ah, everything written about blacks in the mainstream newspaper seemed to be negative. Someone had to kill someone. Ah, you didn't see anything that was positive. So the black press attempted to fill in the missing parts of the news, what had blacks done that was newsworthy. And it often took a position, it had an attitude -- the black press stood on its hind legs and said, "This is being done to our people. We're made about it. We're not gonna take it anymore. We want to do something about it." It did not pretend to be objective. Now this could lead to some, ah, biased stories or stories that were heavily weighted on one side as compared to the other, but it tried to carry out its mission as it saw it.

INT: Talk about the importance of presenting a forum for black people to talk among themselves.
FG: Many of the distinguished writers who contributed to the black press took advantage of the opportunity to reach their people. There was no gap between intellectuals and common folk. Distinguished writers like W.E.B. DuBois and Zora Neale Hurston and Langston Hughes were anxious to connect with their brethren and sister, you might say, ah, for several reasons. One, the mainstream wasn't much interested in listening to what they had to say. And they weren't interested in speaking to the mainstream on those terms because they were dealing with great honesty with their own folks, telling them what they needed to know and what they wanted them to know. It was direct. It was often very brilliantly done, and it was much appreciated. The little person in that barber shop or that beauty shop felt a connection with these important and distinguished people whose names they saw in the papers and whose pictures, too. They knew that someone else understood them, people who had more schooling, people who had more exposure, felt connected to them, understood them, and that -- that we were all in it together.

INT: Why was that important to black people and the black press?
FG: Ah ... one reason why this was so very important is because black people had very few champions in the mainstream. And so they could look to their own champions, their own thinkers within the group, and the black press was the medium through which people in various strata could address each other and even share ideas.

INT: Who was and what motivated Robert Vann?
FG: Robert L. Vann was a sort of small man, medium-light color, ah, unknown father, poor mother, from a small tiny town down in North Carolina who went North to go to school in Pittsburgh, becoming a lawyer, well-educated, and he wanted to help his people. But in helping his people, he also helped himself. That's why he became involved with The Pittsburgh Courier. He wasn't the founder of the Courier, but he eventually gained control of it and used it to advertise his business as a lawyer. Later, as it gained, ah, circulation, he championed his people, calling for better opportunities in industry, ah, an end to discrimination in letting black people and immigrants, recent immigrants, work in the jobs in the steel mill, and he called for, ah ...

INT: Did he blow with the political wind?
FG: Mr. Vann was a dedicated opportunist and he went with the wind when it was conducive to his objectives, but he also cared about his black folks, ah, and what happened to them. He was a Republican and he ... ah, he ... Robert Vann ... was a man of political persuasions and had a couple of political appointments as a lawyers. And this was tied into his role with the paper. Most blacks had been Republicans up until the 1930s. It was the party of Lincoln. Mr. Vann had been so, too. But then he decided that black people were being taken for granted by the Republicans and he became a Democrat. He also wanted other black people to become a Democrat. So he came up with this idea of turn Lincoln's picture to the wall. This was in 1932 ...

INT: Talk about turning Lincoln's picture to the wall.
FG: Mr. Vann used the paper, ah, to further his own career and also to help black people, in tandem. At one point he decided that the black people were being taken for granted by the Republican Party, which was the party of Lincoln in the black community. And he decided that the time had come for them to become Democrats. This was 1932. The country is in the middle of a depression and there were opportunities not only for black people, for himself, he thought. So he gave a speech in Cleveland where he suggested -- he said he saw millions of black people turning Lincoln's picture to the wall. This became a rallying cry for blacks to leave the Republican Party and to become Democrats. Over that next few years this is what happened. And, ah, he got some political appointments out of this, as well. He changed his political affiliation, ah, not only because of the way the blacks were treated from Republican to Democrat to Republican, but also when it would, ah, enhance his own, ah, position as a government appointee. When he died, ah, he was a Republican.

INT: Talk about what the pay was like for reporters during that period.
FG: Now you're talking about back in the '30s?

INT: Thirties and forties.
FG: Thirties and forties. Black reporters were delighted to have an opportunity to enter journalism. It was their only opportunity. They weren't paid that well. They were paid in the pleasure of doing a job that they felt had meaning. But sometimes, ah, in addition to the pay that wasn't that great, they had little, ah, household chores to attend to. Like the women were supposed to clean out the rest room when they were finished at the end of the day or you might have to do a little light sweeping in the news room. Ah, this, ah, was ended whenever unions, ah, came into the play later on.

INT: So what the journalists got was the pleasure of having a job with some kind of dignity?
FG: There was nothing more glamorous and exciting than being a member of the black press during the period before blacks were accepted in the mainstream. Being a movie star or a major athlete was about the only thing that could be more glamorous, -being an entertainer or an athlete was the only thing more glamorous than being a -- a member of the black press with your by-line out there so people could see you. And the reporters and, ah, the columnists became stars in their communities. Everyone knew them. "Here comes so-and-so." When they walked into a club or restaurant, everyone was excited and this was heady stuff, particularly heady stuff when people had few opportunities to work in white collar jobs of any sort. And when they were given little respect, no matter where they went.
FG: The mainstream press saw itself as one that was to report fairly accurately and objectively on everything that was going on in the society, whether or not it really did that. The black press did not have that as a mission. This was a press of advocacy. Positions were taken and a cause was championed. There was news, but the news had an admitted and a deliberate slant. It was not that they didn't know better; it was because they chose to take that course.

INT: What was lost when the black press declined?
FG: The decline of the black press is -- was one of the major blows to African American unity in the history of this country, in my opinion. We had been a group of people with smaller organizations -- churches, clubs, ah, lodges -- where we came together. And the black press was a mortar that united all these little clumps of people together to present and to create a larger structure and to provide communication among these little clumps of people. Without this network of communication, it has been far more difficult for African American people to comprehend fully what is happening to them, to be able to have a debate on issues among themselves, and also to develop and to choose their own leaders.

INT: Talk about the role of women in the black press in the '30s, '40s, and '50s.
FG: Women often had a more restricted role in the black press as they did in journalism, but they sometimes had an opportunity to break out of the tea party and, ah, society world (Background Screech) to write real stories. This was true from the earlier black press in the time of someone like an -- an Ida B. Wells to the modern black press. There were major reporters or sometimes major writers like Zora Neale Hurston who reported for the black press.

INT: How did black newspapers respond to the Civil Rights movement?
FG: Well, some black newspapers were slow to embrace the movement, particularly a few in the South. Some in the South where they were close to the action and, ah, possibly subject to reprisals and different types of pressure, ah, most embraced it and championed it, particularly the -- some of the large national papers. Ah, it was the story of the century, yet, unfortunately, ah, most did not have the resources to cover the Civil Rights, ah, Movement as thoroughly as they wanted to. This also was the time when the white media were beginning to report on what was happening to blacks. People could turn on the television and see the dogs and the fire hoses, ah, but many struggled to do the best they could by providing interpretation, which was something that the mainstream press wouldn't necessarily provide, ah, commentary on what was happening and where it might be going, and also reportage that, ah, might be neglected. I can recall during part of the Civil Rights Movement when I was at The Pittsburgh Courier, there were certain people we could call in Mississippi who could give us information, ah, that we might not have gotten elsewhere, that we couldn't afford to go there directly.

INT: What did the riots do to the black press?
FG: The riots gave the black press an opportunity to achieve it overall (Laughs) objective, which was to put itself out of business. I mean they didn't intend for it to turn out that way, but with the coming of these major urban upheavals, mainstream media, white newspapers and television, wanted to find what was going on, so they hired black reporters in any numbers for the first time. And I know friends of mine who moved into, ah, the mainstream at that time. They could cite the particular riot that led to their being hired. I remember sitting in the Courier news room and watching people disappear. They were going on to other jobs. Men were invited. Women weren't particularly invited (Laughs) at that point. Later on at Ebony Magazine I remember sitting around and watching everybody disappear, (Laughs) going on to jobs in the mainstream because suddenly they were open. Hey, the riots -- I mean it's -- it's sad to say, but violence did work in one respect, more so than even the movements and the marches. Riots led to integration of the press in a brain drain that was devastating.

INT: Talk about the importance of Frederick Douglass to the black press.
FG: Frederick Douglass was a major figure in the overall struggle of black people. And his newspaper helped him to get his word out to people far beyond the many audiences to which he might have lectured both here and abroad. It extended the reach of his voice and it also spoke with a power and an authority because of the sort of person that Frederick Douglass was and the sort of -leadership that he represented.

INT: Talk about the importance of sports to black newspapers.
FG: The only way a black person could make it in this country was in sports and entertainment. And in sports you had the development of superstars within the black world. People bought the papers to find out what was happening and, therefore, the black press championed the exploits of these black athletes and, ah, gave them a kind of recognition that wasn't forthcoming in the mainstream, but they knew who their heroes were and this was before Jackie Robinson. In fact, Jackie Robinson was -- and the whole Jackie Robinson story, the integration of baseball, was to become a major crusade of the black press.

INT: Why was the black press so important?
FG: In the '20s and the '30s the black press was very important because what weapons or what tools did black people have in order to further their own cause or to present their arguments. They were shut out of the society as a whole, but the black press represented this sort of separate world in which black people lived, where they could be liberated from images of inferiority that prevailed, that permeated, were reinforced by what was taught in schools or shown in mainstream newspapers or in the movies. And they also gave them an opportunity to establish their own image, their own identity, and to tell each other what they thought of themselves separate from that mainstream.

INT: Inaudible
FG: The government was not particularly anxious to put weapons in black people's hands, which is one of the reasons why when they were inducted in the service they were put on mess duty and given all sorts of subordinate and --and menial tasks because could you imagine all these black people having these guns, knowin' how to fire them, knowing how to use what was for that time sophisticated weaponry? And with the Double V Campaign linking oppression abroad with oppression here at home, a connection could be made. Would those black people want to use weapons against those who had oppressed them at home as others had been repressed? That was their concern.

INT: Inaudible
FG: At times it seemed that the black people who had migrated North had left behind one type of oppression to just encounter another type of terror and oppression in the North, because when they came, a lot of people weren't happy to see them, these hoards pouring into the cities. So you had, ah, riots, you had terrorism, you had, ah, outbreaks of conflict in which, ah, it's amazing that some of them were able to hold their ground, ah, because it was not the sort of welcome they would have wanted. They found that though racism wore a different face in the North, that it was --the face was not smiling here any more so than it had been in the South.

INT: Tell me about the double-edged sword that (Inaudible)
FG: Newspapers survive in most part on the basis of their advertising, the people who pay the bills. But the black newspapers couldn't get those big ads from the department stores and manufacturers, ah, that was tryin' to reach consumers. They had to take what they could get. This meant they had a lot of ads for skin lighteners and hair straighteners and for, ah, charlatans or John the Conqueror and congerers and these ads were often used by critics of the press to beat them over the head. But that -- that was all they could get. They had to take what they could get, these little, ah, sometimes self-demeaning ads. But, on the other hand, it gave them a kind of a freedom. The white community hadn't given them anything and so they didn't have to give back, in turn. It did not restrict what they could say. They could say what they thought. They were free, but it was a freedom that they would have probably wouldn't have minded trading some of that for some of those monies that they might have gotten from the ads, had they been able to get them.

INT: Tell about black coverage of (Inaudible).
FG: The black press had recognized the connection between blacks here and in Africa ever since J.A. Rogers had started telling us what Africa was really like, ah, what the accomplishments of Africans. But whenever African leaders began to emerge during the period of independence, they were covered more extensively, they were given an opportunity to be interviewed and to speak for themselves in the black papers. I happened to be associated with the Courier during this time and, ah, a woman named Marguerite Cartwright wrote a column regularly on Africa. And it might -- we might note that this connection, ah, meant that when Ghana became the first modern African nation to achieve independence, Quamy and Kuma(?) became a hero, a major figure, to blacks on this side of the -- the Atlantic as well as those on the other. And we celebrated the emergence of every country because we understood we were the same people.
FG: I wouldn't have known anything about (Laughs) Africa when I was coming along if it hadn't been for the black press. From the times when J.A. Rogers was telling us that there'd been such things as black kings and queens and black nations, from the time when the African nations began to emerge as independent entities. And then when they did become independent, their leaders were heroes in our papers. When Quamy and Kumu was President of Ghana, the first modern African agent -- ah, nation to emerge, he was a great hero in the black community here. It reinforced the sense of connection that crossed the ocean.
(END INTERVIEW)