Archived from Monday, August 10, 2009
Dayton Duncan, Co-Producer and Writer of "The National Parks: America's Best Idea" joins us for a live chat to discuss the making of the epic six-part series. The documentary traces the birth of the national park idea in the mid-1800s and follows its evolution for nearly 150 years. The film comes to PBS in Fall 2009.
Archived Chat
Hello and welcome to the Engage Live Chat series. Today we are joined by Dayton Duncan, producer of "The National Parks: America's Best Idea." Hi Dayton. Thanks for joining us today. Let's get started with the first question.
khumaira, solo, indonesia:
What's the most interesting thing that happened when you made the film? *
Dayton Duncan:
That's a tough one. At Hawaii Volcanoes, watching lava flow over a cliff and into the Pacific Ocean – and making new land when it hit the water and cooled – was unforgettable. But then, so was standing near Brooks Falls in Katmai National Park (Alaska) and watching three dozen grizzlies trying to catch the salmon spawning up river. And so was being in Yellowstone in January, when the below-zero temperature creates hoar-frost on the beards of buffaloes, and steam from all the geysers and fumaroles is more pronounced, and during one sunset the camera crew of three and I were literally the only ones there when Old Faithful went off because so few people visit Yellowstone in winter.
And I'm still at a loss to adequately describe the transformative experience of spending 11 days on a raft going down the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon. And . . .. well, you get the point.
Actually, I guess the point is that I have yet to be in a national park that wasn't interesting and that didn't offer up some imperishable memory.
And I'm still at a loss to adequately describe the transformative experience of spending 11 days on a raft going down the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon. And . . .. well, you get the point.
Actually, I guess the point is that I have yet to be in a national park that wasn't interesting and that didn't offer up some imperishable memory.
Jack Fino, Westminster, Maryland:
How did you & Ken Burns end up in Walpole, NH?
Dayton Duncan:
I moved to SW New Hampshire in 1971 after graduating from college and set down roots (though in a neighboring town). I was a reporter first (Walpole was a town I covered), then got involved in NH politics, then started writing books. Ken moved here in 1979, because he wanted to make his first film, and, well, it's cheaper here than NYC. Eventually, our paths crossed and we became good friends -- and our families became friends, too.
In 1992, after living for three years in Kansas while working on a book about the American frontier, I moved back to NH and to Walpole. It's a village of about 800 people; our editing studio is three houses down the street from my house.
Both of us love this town and have enjoyed raising our families here.
In 1992, after living for three years in Kansas while working on a book about the American frontier, I moved back to NH and to Walpole. It's a village of about 800 people; our editing studio is three houses down the street from my house.
Both of us love this town and have enjoyed raising our families here.
Ryan Bell, Ennis, Montana:
I understand you packed equipment by mule/horse into the backcountry. What were highlights of that experience? *
Dayton Duncan:
Most of the time, we were able to get spectacular footage from places that didn't require pack trains, but in two instances it was necessary. Early on, we needed to get footage of Vernal and Nevada Falls in Yosemite at sunset, so we had a pack train help carry equipment to a staging area nearby, and then take our camping equipment farther up into the mountains while we shot.
The other time was getting footage in Kings Canyon NP, in the High Sierra of California. This was a five-day trip in which the pack train took our tents, food, etc. ahead each day while we followed on foot and did our shooting.
As a 59-year-old, I appreciated all that help! And we appreciated the outfitters who were there when we arrived at the campsite, tired, after sundown, with a dinner ready for us!
I've been on a number of backcountry trips with mules and horses. On my "to do" list is doing one in Yellowstone.
The other time was getting footage in Kings Canyon NP, in the High Sierra of California. This was a five-day trip in which the pack train took our tents, food, etc. ahead each day while we followed on foot and did our shooting.
As a 59-year-old, I appreciated all that help! And we appreciated the outfitters who were there when we arrived at the campsite, tired, after sundown, with a dinner ready for us!
I've been on a number of backcountry trips with mules and horses. On my "to do" list is doing one in Yellowstone.
Megan Holbrook, Milwaukee, WI:
Who do you think made the most lasting impact on the development of the national parks?
Dayton Duncan:
That's impossible to say, but here's a list of the top ones:
Frederick Law Olmsted's report on Yosemite (then under state control) in 1865 lays out a manifesto about why parks are important and what they mean to a democracy.
John Muir was one of the earliest, but definitely the most eloquent spokesman ever, for national parks.
Theodore Roosevelt was the greatest president for national parks (thanks to being tutored on conservation by George Bird Grinnell).
Stephen Mather (who created the National Park Service in 1916 and became its first director) and Horace Albright were crucial in transforming a simple collection of parks into a cohesive system.
George Melendez Wright, a biologist, was instrumental in broadening the park idea to encompass preserving nature-as-it-is (that is, don't kill predators, don't feed bears, etc.) rather than just preserving scenery.
Frederick Law Olmsted's report on Yosemite (then under state control) in 1865 lays out a manifesto about why parks are important and what they mean to a democracy.
John Muir was one of the earliest, but definitely the most eloquent spokesman ever, for national parks.
Theodore Roosevelt was the greatest president for national parks (thanks to being tutored on conservation by George Bird Grinnell).
Stephen Mather (who created the National Park Service in 1916 and became its first director) and Horace Albright were crucial in transforming a simple collection of parks into a cohesive system.
George Melendez Wright, a biologist, was instrumental in broadening the park idea to encompass preserving nature-as-it-is (that is, don't kill predators, don't feed bears, etc.) rather than just preserving scenery.
Jim Goldstein, San Francisco, California:
How have artists influenced the creation & increased popularity of National Parks and which have had the greatest impact?
Dayton Duncan:
There's a strong – and sometimes direct – connection between art and the national parks.
The early photographs of Carleton Watkins and paintings of Albert Bierstadt brought Yosemite Valley to the nation's attention in the 1850s/1860s. William Henry Jackson's photos and Thomas Moran's paintings were hung in the Capitol to help convince Congress that the wonderland at the head of the Yellowstone River actually existed and was worthy of becoming the world's first national park.
The Hudson River School artists who came to Mount Desert Island in Maine indirectly led to the creation of Acadia National Park: their paintings attracted the wealthy easterners who built summer homes there; some of them, including John D. Rockefeller, Jr., eventually bought and donated the land to the United States so that much of the island could become a national park.
Ansel Adams' photographs of the Kings Canyon area of the Sierra Nevada persuaded President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his interior secretary, Harold Ickes, to fight for its preservation as a national park.
So art and the parks have been together from the beginning. Ken and I hope our film might become part of that progression – that people who see our documentary will be inspired to visit the parks with their families, and will become fierce advocates for the national parks.
The early photographs of Carleton Watkins and paintings of Albert Bierstadt brought Yosemite Valley to the nation's attention in the 1850s/1860s. William Henry Jackson's photos and Thomas Moran's paintings were hung in the Capitol to help convince Congress that the wonderland at the head of the Yellowstone River actually existed and was worthy of becoming the world's first national park.
The Hudson River School artists who came to Mount Desert Island in Maine indirectly led to the creation of Acadia National Park: their paintings attracted the wealthy easterners who built summer homes there; some of them, including John D. Rockefeller, Jr., eventually bought and donated the land to the United States so that much of the island could become a national park.
Ansel Adams' photographs of the Kings Canyon area of the Sierra Nevada persuaded President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his interior secretary, Harold Ickes, to fight for its preservation as a national park.
So art and the parks have been together from the beginning. Ken and I hope our film might become part of that progression – that people who see our documentary will be inspired to visit the parks with their families, and will become fierce advocates for the national parks.
Megan G, La Crosse, WI:
What influenced your decision to not include all 58 parks in this documentary? *
Dayton Duncan:
Several factors.
First, we were trying to tell a chronological narrative of how the park idea was born, and how it changed and broadened over time. So following that thread took us more to some parks than to others.
Second, we end our principal narrative around 1980 with the huge addition of 7 new Alaska parks, which doubled the size of the park system. There's been 10 more parks created since then (most of them out of existing national monuments), more or less after our story has ended.
Third, even at 12 hours in length, there were a lot of stories that had to fall onto the editing floor. That's the way it always is: too many stories, not enough time to tell them.
We do have at least one image from each of the 58 national parks in the film.
First, we were trying to tell a chronological narrative of how the park idea was born, and how it changed and broadened over time. So following that thread took us more to some parks than to others.
Second, we end our principal narrative around 1980 with the huge addition of 7 new Alaska parks, which doubled the size of the park system. There's been 10 more parks created since then (most of them out of existing national monuments), more or less after our story has ended.
Third, even at 12 hours in length, there were a lot of stories that had to fall onto the editing floor. That's the way it always is: too many stories, not enough time to tell them.
We do have at least one image from each of the 58 national parks in the film.
carla page, columbia,missouri:
Out of all the national parks which was your favorite and why? *
Dayton Duncan:
One of the great joys of this project was that my "job" required me to visit all 58 of the national parks, so I’m often asked which one I like the best. I have two answers. Both of them are equally true.
The first answer is, “Whichever national park I’m in at the moment.” In each park I've visited, I have stored away imperishable memories, and even under threat of torture I could not possibly declare one particular park to be the most spectacular of them all.
But my second answer, equally true, is that my favorite national park is Glacier National Park -- not because I think it’s the most spectacular (though it is incredibly, unbelievably spectacular), but because of unique personal experiences I’ve had there. It’s the first park Dianne and I ever visited together, on a romantic trip in the mid-1980s, before we were married. It’s the first park we later took our two children, Emme and Will, to visit in the late 1990s. And a year ago we made a return visit on the 10th anniversary of that family trip. We've seen rocky mountain goats, taken long and short hikes, taken boat rides and horseback rides, relaxed on the porch of the Many Glacier Hotel (and saw a grizzly bear looking down toward us from a distant mountain side), stood on the shores of pristine lakes, enjoyed driving over the Going-to-the-Sun Road. So Glacier is now part of our family narrative. And did I mention that it’s also incredibly spectacular?
I'm going to be there again in about 3 weeks and can't wait.
The first answer is, “Whichever national park I’m in at the moment.” In each park I've visited, I have stored away imperishable memories, and even under threat of torture I could not possibly declare one particular park to be the most spectacular of them all.
But my second answer, equally true, is that my favorite national park is Glacier National Park -- not because I think it’s the most spectacular (though it is incredibly, unbelievably spectacular), but because of unique personal experiences I’ve had there. It’s the first park Dianne and I ever visited together, on a romantic trip in the mid-1980s, before we were married. It’s the first park we later took our two children, Emme and Will, to visit in the late 1990s. And a year ago we made a return visit on the 10th anniversary of that family trip. We've seen rocky mountain goats, taken long and short hikes, taken boat rides and horseback rides, relaxed on the porch of the Many Glacier Hotel (and saw a grizzly bear looking down toward us from a distant mountain side), stood on the shores of pristine lakes, enjoyed driving over the Going-to-the-Sun Road. So Glacier is now part of our family narrative. And did I mention that it’s also incredibly spectacular?
I'm going to be there again in about 3 weeks and can't wait.
Ann Hooke, Deer Isle ME:
Magnificent silence is characteristic of National Parks. Why add orchestral music that covers canyon wrens, loons and gulls? Why cover the natural sounds with music? *
Dayton Duncan:
The canyon wren's song is one of my favorites in nature (not to mention the cry of the loon). You'll hear them in our film.
But ours is a film, with a story to tell, not just scenes from nature (though nature is the backdrop). So we have music that we think adds considerably to the storytelling -- Ken and I call it the "emotional metronome" of a film -- and for which we're very proud. We also, I might add, have a lot of talking in the film: the narrator, the first-person voices of John Muir, etc., and interviews. But we also take great pains to have authentic sound as part of the mix, and in certain moments try to let that be more at the forefront than the background.
And in our 5th episode is this quote from Chiura Obata, the painter of Yosemite:
"In the evening, it gets very cold; the coyotes howl in the distance, in the mid sky the moon is arcing, all the trees are standing here and there, and it is very quiet. You can learn from the teachings within this quietness. …Some people teach by speeches, some by talking, but I think it is important that you are taught by silence." I, too, think you can learn a lot from silence. But I think a documentary film is better when it's a talkie, with music, than a silent film.
But ours is a film, with a story to tell, not just scenes from nature (though nature is the backdrop). So we have music that we think adds considerably to the storytelling -- Ken and I call it the "emotional metronome" of a film -- and for which we're very proud. We also, I might add, have a lot of talking in the film: the narrator, the first-person voices of John Muir, etc., and interviews. But we also take great pains to have authentic sound as part of the mix, and in certain moments try to let that be more at the forefront than the background.
And in our 5th episode is this quote from Chiura Obata, the painter of Yosemite:
"In the evening, it gets very cold; the coyotes howl in the distance, in the mid sky the moon is arcing, all the trees are standing here and there, and it is very quiet. You can learn from the teachings within this quietness. …Some people teach by speeches, some by talking, but I think it is important that you are taught by silence." I, too, think you can learn a lot from silence. But I think a documentary film is better when it's a talkie, with music, than a silent film.
Tim Armintrout, Olathe, KS:
Now that you have seen most of the national parks, how about making a 1 hour DVD of each park?
Dayton Duncan:
We're historians and we tell historical stories. In this case we wanted to tell the story of an idea – the uniquely American idea, or invention, called national parks (now copied around the world). And we wanted to tell the stories of the people who came up with the idea, who broadened it by adding new parks and new notions of what a park could be. Our goal was the opposite of making separate films on separate parks; it was to weave an interconnected narrative. It's not a travelogue or a nature film, though there's plenty about the evolving role of nature in the national parks and there's certainly a lot of scenery from the parks.
Nothing wrong with someone else doing an hour video on each park – especially on those that don't get that much time in our series. But I don't think we at Florentine will be doing it.
Nothing wrong with someone else doing an hour video on each park – especially on those that don't get that much time in our series. But I don't think we at Florentine will be doing it.
Jill Hubbs:
What do you hope will be the impact of the National Parks documentary? *
Dayton Duncan:
I hope a number of things. I hope that millions of Americans will come away with a deeper appreciation of the national parks -- even a pride in the fact that this idea is uniquely American. I hope they will decide to visit a park with their family, most importantly if they've never been to one before, but even if it's to return to a park they've been to previously. I hope they'll understand what a great diversity of parks there is -- not just Yellowstone, Yosemite, the Grand Canyon -- but also lesser known parks.
Most of all, I hope people are inspired to not just visit the parks but become park defenders -- which people become if they set foot in a national park. As our series will show, from the very beginning it's been a struggle to create and preserve these special places against interests that want to overdevelop or overcommercialize or even do away with them altogether. Every generation has to renew America's commitment to these places, just as it has to renew (and hopefully broaden) the definition of freedom. I hope that renewal begins on September 27, when our series begins broadcast.
Most of all, I hope people are inspired to not just visit the parks but become park defenders -- which people become if they set foot in a national park. As our series will show, from the very beginning it's been a struggle to create and preserve these special places against interests that want to overdevelop or overcommercialize or even do away with them altogether. Every generation has to renew America's commitment to these places, just as it has to renew (and hopefully broaden) the definition of freedom. I hope that renewal begins on September 27, when our series begins broadcast.
June, Portsmouth, VA:
Which do you prefer: filming or post-production?
Dayton Duncan:
As the writer, I love doing the research, meeting the experts, and going through the struggle of crafting a narrative. I'm a writer first.
As a producer, I love going out to the locations and scouting for the shoots -- especially on a project like this, which took me to all the national parks. And I love returning with a film crew and trying to get the perfect shots at the best time of day (sunrise or sunset) -- especially, again, on this project.
But I also enjoy the collaborative process of working with our team in the editing house, where the words, the images, the music, and the sounds eventually get put together.
So, luckily, I love all the aspects of the process. But as a writer, I will quote the Bible: "In the beginning was the Word."
As a producer, I love going out to the locations and scouting for the shoots -- especially on a project like this, which took me to all the national parks. And I love returning with a film crew and trying to get the perfect shots at the best time of day (sunrise or sunset) -- especially, again, on this project.
But I also enjoy the collaborative process of working with our team in the editing house, where the words, the images, the music, and the sounds eventually get put together.
So, luckily, I love all the aspects of the process. But as a writer, I will quote the Bible: "In the beginning was the Word."
Michael Harris, San Francisco, CA:
Did you go in to this film with a set story or did you build a narrative from the footage you gathered?
Dayton Duncan:
We approach each project as an exercise in discovery for us -- and hope then to share that discovery with the viewers. So at the start, we knew we wanted to tell the story of the national park idea, but we didn't already have that story in hand. We had to learn it, to let it reveal itself to us. Sometimes that was in the research of individual characters or individual parks; sometimes that came out of interviews; sometimes it came out of simply being in a park and shooting the scenery and realizing that we needed to make sure those shots found a home in the final film.
We try very hard not to simply go out and illustrate a script; just as we try very hard to let eloquent and knowledgeable people tell us things rather than regurgitate something to fill a blank in the script.
We think this process is the best for us. It takes a little longer, but we hope the final product benefits from it.
We try very hard not to simply go out and illustrate a script; just as we try very hard to let eloquent and knowledgeable people tell us things rather than regurgitate something to fill a blank in the script.
We think this process is the best for us. It takes a little longer, but we hope the final product benefits from it.
Elizabeth Bardot, Boston, MA:
With so many changes in the environment and to the laws that protect parks, what do you think is the future of the National Parks?
Dayton Duncan:
We're historians, not journalists or policy makers, though that doesn't mean we don't have opinions. I think the future of the national parks depends entirely upon whether a greater number of Americans, in an increasingly diverse population, come to understand that the parks belong to them. They are all equal co-owners of the most magnificent and sacred places in our land. And as co-owners, it would be good for them to go out and inspect this property that is theirs. And then make sure that it's properly taken care of. Most important, they need to make sure it's in their will for their children.
For a variety of reasons, larger percentages of Americans don't yet feel that sense of ownership. Without it, the interests that are always with us -- who would love to build dams, mine for minerals, cut trees, etc., in pristine places -- will have an easier time of chipping away at these treasures. Or even worse, without park defenders and park lovers, the whole thing can deteriorate through apathy.
As Terry Tempest Williams, the great environmental writer, says in our film: the future is one of restoration, and the national park idea is a compact with the next generation that says, "This is who we were, this is what we loved, and now it's in your hands."
For a variety of reasons, larger percentages of Americans don't yet feel that sense of ownership. Without it, the interests that are always with us -- who would love to build dams, mine for minerals, cut trees, etc., in pristine places -- will have an easier time of chipping away at these treasures. Or even worse, without park defenders and park lovers, the whole thing can deteriorate through apathy.
As Terry Tempest Williams, the great environmental writer, says in our film: the future is one of restoration, and the national park idea is a compact with the next generation that says, "This is who we were, this is what we loved, and now it's in your hands."
Will Stern, Washington DC:
Creating the national parks was incredibly visionary, what can we do as individuals to maintain the parks? *
Dayton Duncan:
Here's your "to do" list:
1. Go to a national park. It will be good for you, but it will also demonstrate to the people who oversee the parks' future (Congress) that there is a constituency for parks, simply because you've shown your interest by showing up.
2. Donate to the National Park Foundation, which is the official charity of the national parks and helps fund important programs that otherwise wouldn't get done. (There are a lot of other park groups worth supporting, too.)
3. Let your elected representatives know that parks are important to you and that you expect them to adequately fund the parks.
4. If you're a parent, take your kid or kids to the parks. Make it part of their life experience. You don't have to make it an Outward Bound experience; just make sure they go to a park. They'll get it.
1. Go to a national park. It will be good for you, but it will also demonstrate to the people who oversee the parks' future (Congress) that there is a constituency for parks, simply because you've shown your interest by showing up.
2. Donate to the National Park Foundation, which is the official charity of the national parks and helps fund important programs that otherwise wouldn't get done. (There are a lot of other park groups worth supporting, too.)
3. Let your elected representatives know that parks are important to you and that you expect them to adequately fund the parks.
4. If you're a parent, take your kid or kids to the parks. Make it part of their life experience. You don't have to make it an Outward Bound experience; just make sure they go to a park. They'll get it.
Moderator: For more information, visit the The National Park Foundation.
Stephanie Alvarez, Los Angeles, CA:
What projects are you working on now? And when will we get to see them?
Dayton Duncan:
Right now, Florentine Films is in the editing phase of an update of the nine-episode series on the history of Baseball (we call it the 10th Inning), which will appear in 2010. (I'm an advisor on this)
In 2011, there will be a 3-episode documentary on Prohibition. (I'm an advisor)
In 2012, a two-episode film on the Dust Bowl of the 1930s. I'm the writer/producer of this, and with some others am now in the midst of researching the topic and finding people who lived through the Dust Bowl who might be interviewed for it.
In 2013, we should have a mult-episode triple biography of Theodore, Eleanor, and Franklin Roosevelt.
And then . . . So many great American stories, so little time.
In 2011, there will be a 3-episode documentary on Prohibition. (I'm an advisor)
In 2012, a two-episode film on the Dust Bowl of the 1930s. I'm the writer/producer of this, and with some others am now in the midst of researching the topic and finding people who lived through the Dust Bowl who might be interviewed for it.
In 2013, we should have a mult-episode triple biography of Theodore, Eleanor, and Franklin Roosevelt.
And then . . . So many great American stories, so little time.
Thank you to Dayton for joining us today, and thanks to the audience for participating. Feel free to continue the chat in the Archived Chat section and tune in to the film on September 27th.
Starred (*) questions have been edited by PBS editors for brevity and/or clarity. The original, unedited question can be found to the right under Audience Questions.
Glacier National Park
Hello Mr. Duncan,
Thank you so much for being part of this incredible (or so I hear) production. I am lucky enough to live in the "backyard" of Glacier National Park. I moved here from the East coast about a year ago, and while I still struggle financially from the move, job market change, and a nasty divorce, I have to say I could not be happier.
I have decided to take the bull by the horns, and figure out a way to develop www.VisitGlacierPark.com in time for next years Centennial celebration....
Thanks again.... and I so look forward to seeing the series!
Question about your comment
I was just wondering, Mr. Duncan, why you changed the words of the Declaration of Independence in the National Parks program aired tonight from "all men are created equal" to all human beings are created equal?" Were Jefferson's words not good enough? Doesn't anyone understand any longer that the term "man" is a universal expression and has nothing to do with gender? Just wondering...
The Gherkes
I'm curious how the touching story of the Gherkes, and their wonderful photo album and diary, was discovered for inclusion in the series.
Comment on Chapter 6
Mr. Duncan,
I'll skip all the earned accolades and compliments on your work and cut right to the source of the matter - the last 5 minutes of Chapter 6 when you told the story of the mountain goats and your son wrote, "This was the most exciting day of my life." As a father, it also brought tears to my eyes.
This summer we made our second trip out west. We were in Arches National Park and I wanted to photograph the Delicate Arch with a night sky. My son (20 yrs old) was with me and we got lost returning to the car. My buddy hike gave me tears about my foolishness. (It was a bit scary.)
How do you guys keep hitting home runs?
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