Archived from Tuesday, December 9, 2008
Rachel Simmons, a national expert on girls and author of the New York Times bestseller Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls, works internationally with girls, parents and teachers to develop strategies to empower girls and to address bullying - both in the real world and in the online world. Rachel also served as an expert advisor to PBS Parents' "Guide to Understanding and Raising Girls."
Archived Chat
Hello and welcome to PBS' live chat series. Today we are pleased to welcome Rachel Simmons, author of "Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls" and expert adviser to PBS Parents' Guide to Understanding and Raising Girls. Thanks for joining us Rachel. Here is the first question.
Alexandra Bianca Brown, NYC, NY:
How do I help my daughter overcome extreme jealousy?
Rachel Simmons:
HI Alexandra. There is a reason we call jealousy the green MONSTER. It is an overwhelming feeling, and very hard to control. It's also normal. If you haven't validated your daughter's feeling, I would recommend making sure she understands that it's okay to feel that way. Girls have a way of telling themselves they "shouldn't" feel a certain way, which often leads to feeling the feeling even more, and then thinking bad thoughts about oneself. It is important for her to know it's okay.
Beyond that, and as I am sure you know, I think we typically feel jealous when we are feeling small or limited about something in ourselves. What, in your opinion, might be missing from your daughter's life that might be causing her to feel this way? Sometimes it can be a bad day that makes me feel insecure, but sometimes, it can be that I am just plain unhappy about something. Maybe I need to play more and work less. Maybe I am not getting what I need from my primary relationships. Work towards lessening the jealousy in a positive sense -- how can you fill some of those gaps for her?
The final thought I have on this is more curiosity than anything you have revealed in your question. But I wonder if there is another girl in her life who incites this jealousy, and if the dynamic between these girls is one in which your daughter fundamentally feels "less than." Jealousy is normal, to be sure; but we can all fall into dysfunctional friendships where, for whatever reason, a person brings out the worst in us. If that is going on with your daughter, I would try to steer her into some other relationships, or do whatever repair with her that is possible in the toxic relationship. Good luck.
Beyond that, and as I am sure you know, I think we typically feel jealous when we are feeling small or limited about something in ourselves. What, in your opinion, might be missing from your daughter's life that might be causing her to feel this way? Sometimes it can be a bad day that makes me feel insecure, but sometimes, it can be that I am just plain unhappy about something. Maybe I need to play more and work less. Maybe I am not getting what I need from my primary relationships. Work towards lessening the jealousy in a positive sense -- how can you fill some of those gaps for her?
The final thought I have on this is more curiosity than anything you have revealed in your question. But I wonder if there is another girl in her life who incites this jealousy, and if the dynamic between these girls is one in which your daughter fundamentally feels "less than." Jealousy is normal, to be sure; but we can all fall into dysfunctional friendships where, for whatever reason, a person brings out the worst in us. If that is going on with your daughter, I would try to steer her into some other relationships, or do whatever repair with her that is possible in the toxic relationship. Good luck.
Jane, Atlanta, GA:
My 4 yr. old daughter is the "new" girl at school. I want my daughter to feel independent and confident. Any advice? *
Rachel Simmons:
Hi Jane. Thanks for writing in. Your question is one of the toughest parents face. You are a parent at a moment when there is tremendous pressure to solve the problems of your children before they get a chance to encounter any failure or disappointment. Many parents feel as if they have failed if their children struggle. There is also so much pressure to raise an exceptional child! So, you are facing a lot of "norms," culturally speaking, that make parenting quite a challenge.
That said, if you can be aware of that pressure and fight the urge to solve her problems, you will be ahead of the game. This means doing some of the following when your daughter comes home with a problem:
1. Empathizing with her (notice I did not say Solving the Problem)
2. Asking her how she feels (notice I did not say Solving the Problem :)!)
3. Asking her what she wants to do about it
Resist the urge to tell her what to do. You might need to do that, but allow her the space to come up with her own ideas. You can also role-play with her how she might respond to situations. These will be simple, but four year olds love to play fantasy games like that.
My other advice to you would be: help her feel a sense of mastery over her environment. Expose her to opportunities where she can feel in control and rewarded for learning how to do something -- even if she fails along the way. Encourage her silliness and free play so that she develops her own independent ways of creating fun for herself.
That said, if you can be aware of that pressure and fight the urge to solve her problems, you will be ahead of the game. This means doing some of the following when your daughter comes home with a problem:
1. Empathizing with her (notice I did not say Solving the Problem)
2. Asking her how she feels (notice I did not say Solving the Problem :)!)
3. Asking her what she wants to do about it
Resist the urge to tell her what to do. You might need to do that, but allow her the space to come up with her own ideas. You can also role-play with her how she might respond to situations. These will be simple, but four year olds love to play fantasy games like that.
My other advice to you would be: help her feel a sense of mastery over her environment. Expose her to opportunities where she can feel in control and rewarded for learning how to do something -- even if she fails along the way. Encourage her silliness and free play so that she develops her own independent ways of creating fun for herself.
Janie Johnson, Burlington, VT:
How has aggression and bullying in the age of the Internet affected the way you recommend we teach and grow our girls?
Rachel Simmons:
Hi Janie. Great question! There is SO much to say about this topic. The Internet is the new bathroom wall, only this bathroom wall can be launched into everyone's house, with just a click of a button. That has transformed the power kids have to hurt each other -- and changed the game for how we need to parent girls.
Let me say a few things about this. First, one of the biggest problems we see with respect to cyberbullying is that schools do not hold kids accountable for behavior occurring "off school grounds;" yet as any school professional will tell you, what happens off school grounds comes right back into the school, disrupting the social fabric. When kids are not held accountable for their actions -- and unfortunately, many parents are not doing this on their own -- a lot of kids learn quickly that, short of threatening someone's life, they can say and do what they want online. So one thing I think we need to do is pass laws, in school districts and state legislatures, that hold kids accountable on and off campus.
I think that as a country we have funneled quite a bit of money into teaching kids about Internet stranger danger; that is, teaching girls (especially) to avoid unfamiliar people online. Yet it's the people a girl sees every day who I think are most likely to hurt her electronically. In other words, we have to do more to help kids navigate their social lives online. The Internet is an extension of girls' relationships -- like a bathroom or hallway or carpool lane, it's a place where girls congregate, often away from adult supervision. We have not done enough to define (and help kids think about) social obligations, rules and boundaries online.
The last thing I'll say about this is that I think parents need to put more limits on use of technology. I don't think girls should go to bed with cell phones, and I think that use should be moderated the way TV access is.
Let me say a few things about this. First, one of the biggest problems we see with respect to cyberbullying is that schools do not hold kids accountable for behavior occurring "off school grounds;" yet as any school professional will tell you, what happens off school grounds comes right back into the school, disrupting the social fabric. When kids are not held accountable for their actions -- and unfortunately, many parents are not doing this on their own -- a lot of kids learn quickly that, short of threatening someone's life, they can say and do what they want online. So one thing I think we need to do is pass laws, in school districts and state legislatures, that hold kids accountable on and off campus.
I think that as a country we have funneled quite a bit of money into teaching kids about Internet stranger danger; that is, teaching girls (especially) to avoid unfamiliar people online. Yet it's the people a girl sees every day who I think are most likely to hurt her electronically. In other words, we have to do more to help kids navigate their social lives online. The Internet is an extension of girls' relationships -- like a bathroom or hallway or carpool lane, it's a place where girls congregate, often away from adult supervision. We have not done enough to define (and help kids think about) social obligations, rules and boundaries online.
The last thing I'll say about this is that I think parents need to put more limits on use of technology. I don't think girls should go to bed with cell phones, and I think that use should be moderated the way TV access is.
Gerrit van Dyk, Provo, UT:
What can I be doing, specifically as a father, to help my daughters so they are less susceptible to aggression, either as aggressor or victim?
Rachel Simmons:
Hi Gerrit. Thanks for writing in. It is always great to see a Dad invested in empowering his daughter. So many fathers think they "don't get" girls, especially their social lives. I think it's just that unfamiliarity that can be the source of empowerment. Research tells us that girls who are exposed to habits of mind and behavior that is gender-atypical, meaning more "masculine" or "less feminine," are more likely to feel comfortable engaging in those behaviors themselves. In other words, if your daughter grows up in a peer culture where girls never speak their minds, but lives with a father who does say what he thinks, and who encourages her to do the same, she is more likely to feel comfortable speaking up. Modeling is crucial!
I always tell Dads that you dont' have to understand every last aspect of a girl situation in order to be helpful. What your daughter needs most is (1) your empathy (2) your willingness to engage her in thinking about what SHE can do to solve the problem. Any parent who swoops in to solve the problem is not doing his daughter any favors at all.
The other thing you can do is make sure your daughter understands that psychological aggression will not be tolerated. Resist the urge to use words like "catfight" or any other terms that may diminish or mock girls' aggression. Take it seriously -- as seriously as you take physical aggression. Treat it the same way. But it's not all about punishment. Be sure to reward the positive behaviors. When you hear her speak her mind respectfully, reinforce her.
I always tell Dads that you dont' have to understand every last aspect of a girl situation in order to be helpful. What your daughter needs most is (1) your empathy (2) your willingness to engage her in thinking about what SHE can do to solve the problem. Any parent who swoops in to solve the problem is not doing his daughter any favors at all.
The other thing you can do is make sure your daughter understands that psychological aggression will not be tolerated. Resist the urge to use words like "catfight" or any other terms that may diminish or mock girls' aggression. Take it seriously -- as seriously as you take physical aggression. Treat it the same way. But it's not all about punishment. Be sure to reward the positive behaviors. When you hear her speak her mind respectfully, reinforce her.
Bradford, Studio City, CA:
What can we do to help our daughter (4) with 2 dads respond to bullies who try to hurt her, change how she thinks of our family?
Rachel Simmons:
Hi Bradford. Having two dads will certainly put your daughter in a position of having to defend herself -- hopefully not too much, but let's face it; she will still grow up in a homophobic world. Although she may face more right now, the reality is, she will grow more resilient as a result. Kids who face some kind of struggle in their youth grow thicker skins, and they are less likely to fall apart in the face of stresses that life brings, like adolescence. For instance, a very popular book right now is called "the Price of Privilege" by Madeline Levine. Dr. Levine identifies the newest at-risk population of children as affluent adolescents. This is because they are growing up in a world where everything is fixed and protected on their behalf. Affluent adolescents in this category fall apart in their teens, becoming anxious, depressed, and prone to dangerous risk taking like drugs, alcohol, and risky sexual behavior.
This does not make you feel better as a parent, I know. There is nothing worse than seeing your child suffer. So in the short term, I would talk frankly with your daughter about it. I would say, "There are people in the world who do not like it that your dads are together. There are some people in this world who can be very mean. That doesn't mean that they have the right answer, or are doing a good thing. They have one opinion, and we have our own. We love each other and we love our family. We know that's true. But what can we say to people who are mean to us?" Talk with her about what she thinks you can do. Role play some responses that she might use in the face of discrimination or hate, remembering to work on her level (not your own). Good luck to you.
This does not make you feel better as a parent, I know. There is nothing worse than seeing your child suffer. So in the short term, I would talk frankly with your daughter about it. I would say, "There are people in the world who do not like it that your dads are together. There are some people in this world who can be very mean. That doesn't mean that they have the right answer, or are doing a good thing. They have one opinion, and we have our own. We love each other and we love our family. We know that's true. But what can we say to people who are mean to us?" Talk with her about what she thinks you can do. Role play some responses that she might use in the face of discrimination or hate, remembering to work on her level (not your own). Good luck to you.
angela, boston, ma:
Did the movie "Mean Girls" w/Lindsay Lohan have a significant effect on girls behavior, or was it just reflecting reality?
Rachel Simmons:
Hi Angela. I would have to say that if Mean Girls had an effect on girls' behavior, it was probably ornamental or otherwise very small. Girls' aggression has been around for a long time, so one movie is not going to knock it one way or the other. That said, a recent study found that girls are exposed to ten times the amount of psychological aggression in the media than they actually experience in real life. The representation of girls' lives as rife with aggression may certainly affect how some girls think about their relationships. One of my 13 year old students recently showed me a text message she received from some angry friends. After an incredibly vulgar, vitriolic message, the girls signed it "xoxo," which is exactly how Gossip Girl signs off. I couldn't help but notice the connection. So, does this stuff have an effect? Somewhat, yes. Despite my affection for the movie "Mean Girls," I would add that one thing we can do as adults is get girls to see that the vast majority of movies on girls' aggression are comedies -- ask girls, What does this mean? They will tell you that it means our culture doesn't take girls' aggression (or their relationships) very seriously. That it mocks the behavior. This is another tack we can take in talking to girls about the media.
Michele Efron, San Diego, CA:
How do I teach my daughters (4 1/2 & 2) not to emulate the images they see on magazine covers and TV?
Rachel Simmons:
Hi Michele. This is a very important question. First of all, I want to recommend a new book on this very topic called "So Sexy So Soon." It's by Diane Levin and Jean Kilbourne, and it is about the sexualization of childhood. It provides very concrete strategies to resist the onslaught of images that sexualize children.
But it is most certainly an onslaught. One of the things Levin and Kilbourne talk about is that it is not enough just to say "no." That may work with very young children like yours, but in the long run, it will lead to hiding and sneaking around. Beyond no, you have to talk about the messages kids are getting. Again, your kids are awfully young for that. So one thing I would recommend is that you try to limit their access to the media that would sexualize them. Limit what Levin and Kilbourne call "screen time," the amount of time they are in front of ANY screen - computer, phone, TV, etc. Expose them to empowering media (to the extent that you can find it). A great book series for tweens is called "Beacon Street Girls." Check out websites like Common Sense Media to keep track of what your kids are watching, and to see what experts have to say. But definitely check out this book --- it will help a lot!
But it is most certainly an onslaught. One of the things Levin and Kilbourne talk about is that it is not enough just to say "no." That may work with very young children like yours, but in the long run, it will lead to hiding and sneaking around. Beyond no, you have to talk about the messages kids are getting. Again, your kids are awfully young for that. So one thing I would recommend is that you try to limit their access to the media that would sexualize them. Limit what Levin and Kilbourne call "screen time," the amount of time they are in front of ANY screen - computer, phone, TV, etc. Expose them to empowering media (to the extent that you can find it). A great book series for tweens is called "Beacon Street Girls." Check out websites like Common Sense Media to keep track of what your kids are watching, and to see what experts have to say. But definitely check out this book --- it will help a lot!
Juliet G, Novato, CA:
Any advice for a parent whose daughter has been socially isolated at school? How can I be supportive without making her feel worse?
Rachel Simmons:
It's such an anguishing thing to have your child go through something like this. What you want to do, or what you think you can do, is often so different from what she can or is prepared to do. Here is what I suggest.
Deal with your own feelings as much as possible. It's like those instructions you get on the airplane: put your own oxygen mask on before you help your child. There's a reason for that. If you are compromised, it will affect your ability to help your child. So if you are feeling the very normal feelings that come along with this terrible part of parenting -- rage, depression, sadness, etc. -- make sure you are taking care of yourself, whether that's by going to the gym or getting some counseling, talking to a friend, whatever. If you don't, your feelings can seep into how you interact with your child, and you may end up making her feel worse, either because she sees your emotions and feels like she has failed you, or that she has to take care of you, or because she sees your frustration and feels inadequate.
Empathize, empathize, empathize. Acknowledge her feelings. That doesn't mean cry with her. Remember how, when she was learning to walk, when she fell down she would look at you to see how to react? If you freaked out, so did she. But a combination of empathy and getting her back on her feet helped her see that she could keep going. Use the same philosophy here.
Don't forget the little things: mental health days (or mornings) from school. If she hates sitting at lunch alone, is there a room she could occasionally eat lunch in so she doesn't have to manage the lunchroom? Can you take her out for a fun night where you don't talk about the problems, and just let her forget? Girls remember those kinds of things moms do, well into adulthood. Good luck.
Deal with your own feelings as much as possible. It's like those instructions you get on the airplane: put your own oxygen mask on before you help your child. There's a reason for that. If you are compromised, it will affect your ability to help your child. So if you are feeling the very normal feelings that come along with this terrible part of parenting -- rage, depression, sadness, etc. -- make sure you are taking care of yourself, whether that's by going to the gym or getting some counseling, talking to a friend, whatever. If you don't, your feelings can seep into how you interact with your child, and you may end up making her feel worse, either because she sees your emotions and feels like she has failed you, or that she has to take care of you, or because she sees your frustration and feels inadequate.
Empathize, empathize, empathize. Acknowledge her feelings. That doesn't mean cry with her. Remember how, when she was learning to walk, when she fell down she would look at you to see how to react? If you freaked out, so did she. But a combination of empathy and getting her back on her feet helped her see that she could keep going. Use the same philosophy here.
Don't forget the little things: mental health days (or mornings) from school. If she hates sitting at lunch alone, is there a room she could occasionally eat lunch in so she doesn't have to manage the lunchroom? Can you take her out for a fun night where you don't talk about the problems, and just let her forget? Girls remember those kinds of things moms do, well into adulthood. Good luck.
Phil Walden, Charlottesville, VA:
What positive role models can you identify for young girls and how can parents expose our daughters more to these women?
Rachel Simmons:
Hi Phil. I wish I had a list as long as my arm to give you, but unfortunately, i don't. This isn't exactly a bull market for female role models. I think if you broaden your sense of what a good role model is, you might be more successful. For example, how awesome is Lisa Simpson? Outspoken, original, intrepid. Or someone like Oprah. Laila Ali, the boxer. A lot of girls really like Pink, the singer/songwriter. Kate Winslet: doesn't diet, gets outraged when she gets airbrushed. The Beacon Street Girls in the Beacon Street book series - fabulous role models. New Moon Girls, a website where original, outspoken girls can develop community with other likeminded girls. Queen Latifah. But I would also encourage you to find real live role models in your daughter's life. Are there opportunities for her to have a "Big Sister" or mentor figure in her life, perhaps through Girl Scouts or another similar program? I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot, but these are what come to mind for now.
jaimee, washington dc:
What are the Top 3 Tactics we can employ as parents to raise stronger, more self-sufficient and HAPPY girls.
Rachel Simmons:
Hi Jaimee. Okay, my top 3:
1. Don't solve all of her problems for her. Ask her what she wants to, and what might happen if she makes that choice. Get her to think about how she can deal with stress on her own terms. Develop her ability to think about the consequences of her actions.
2. Help her find a passion -- something that lights her up on the inside. Best if it can be something she learns from and occasionally fails at, an activity that inspires her to keep on trying. This passion will give her refuge during stress, increase her sense of mastery and control, and deepen her engagement with -- and commitment to --- the world.
3. Look at yourself. One of the best things we can GIVE girls is to TAKE something for ourselves, women especially. What are you modeling for your daughter? Do you clean up after everyone, keep the peace, sacrifice yourself and your own needs to take care of your family? If so, you are doing what most women feel they must or should do. But you are also modeling a way of being in the world -- caregiving at the expense of oneself, for example -- that sends a message to your daughter about how the woman she loves most in the world functions. So evaluate yourself and take what YOU need -- by being a little "selfish," you will teach your daughter to take a little for herself, too.
1. Don't solve all of her problems for her. Ask her what she wants to, and what might happen if she makes that choice. Get her to think about how she can deal with stress on her own terms. Develop her ability to think about the consequences of her actions.
2. Help her find a passion -- something that lights her up on the inside. Best if it can be something she learns from and occasionally fails at, an activity that inspires her to keep on trying. This passion will give her refuge during stress, increase her sense of mastery and control, and deepen her engagement with -- and commitment to --- the world.
3. Look at yourself. One of the best things we can GIVE girls is to TAKE something for ourselves, women especially. What are you modeling for your daughter? Do you clean up after everyone, keep the peace, sacrifice yourself and your own needs to take care of your family? If so, you are doing what most women feel they must or should do. But you are also modeling a way of being in the world -- caregiving at the expense of oneself, for example -- that sends a message to your daughter about how the woman she loves most in the world functions. So evaluate yourself and take what YOU need -- by being a little "selfish," you will teach your daughter to take a little for herself, too.
Thank you for joining us, Rachel!
Starred (*) questions have been edited by PBS editors for brevity and/or clarity. The original, unedited question can be found to the right under Audience Questions.
Hello. As someone who has
Hello. As someone who has struggled with weight over the last few years, I am afraid that my strict dieting and exercise will have a negative effect on my daughters' image of their own bodies. I am hoping you can give me suggestions on how to promote a healthy view on body image in my home, while acknowledging the importance of a good diet and exercise to keep a healthy weight.
Hi Rachel. I have a 9yr old
Hi Rachel.
I have a 9yr old daughter who tells fibs. They are getting more frequent and larger than life, almost to the point where I think she believes them. When I ask her about it, she says she has to make up stories to make her life more interesting so that other girls will like her and play with her more at school. Is this normal or do I need to see a child physiciatrist?
Regards
Laura
Post Your Comment About the Chat
We reserve the right to remove posts that don't follow these guidelines. By submitting comments, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy, which include more details.