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Aloha from Hawaii! If subjective relativity is correct, and the observed limitation of the speed of light is an epistemological phenomenon, the increase in mass observed in relativistically fast-moving particles will not have an ontological counterpart. If subjective relativity is correct, the observed increase in mass is illusory. There is no Higgs field and no Higgs particle.
Subjective relativity is explained about a third of the way down the following web page:
http://thejerusalemproject.com/d/d/5525.html
Aloha pumehana,
Noy sure which science you are looking at but there are many different ideas in Evoulution and Global Warming............that is why it is called science to explore the unknown. This past administration understood that and was willing to not pick a winner or a loser but to stay opened minded
I'm a layman, and I liked the Fermilab PBS show generally; however, I was considerably disappointed in individual justifications presented to the public.
A reporter ask one lady {men the same} "why Fermilab", and she sit there for seconds before simply lamenting mankinds need to know. Yes, all this is true, but the general public wants to hear "what good will all this effort be for me and my daily life." There is some human nature to considerations for "now" as apposed to the "future".
I believe that a larger percent of explanations must be along the afore mentioned line of reasoning. Otherwise, the public will be comparing reasons with more personal, and seemingly, apparent justifications.
Otherwise, I truly enjoyed the show. I'm a long time truck driver/miner interested in science and SF. Keep up the good work.
Truck driver/miner SF TITLE Web Site "http://www.drwarpentein.com".
How sad. The last 8 years should be called "The 2nd Inquisition". How the heck is this country going to
prosper if we don't fund basic research? All this talk about increased math and science interest is all B.S.
if there isn't a commitment for research that isn't directly related to weapons. We're spending a billion dollars a day on "the war on terror". End the war one day early and fund this program for 10 more years.
The Atom Smashers is one of the best IL films I have seen. It is a unique sciene related documentary in that the human side of the physicists is explored in addition to the fascinating science. This film deserves widespread exposure. It needs to be shown in science classrooms across the country. It may take a new generation to help us regain scientific leadership.
Let's put the politics aside for a moment.
On camera, there appears to be a paradigm shift here, showing response to the serious lack of deduction in the inductive/deductive process that has plagued science in general for the past 30+ years.
I wonder if Dr. Michael Crichton was alive long enough to have seen this? I think it would have given him hope that there is possibly some notice of the potential cure for the junk science and consensus science that is currently running away with the community. . .as well as the politics.
Return to scientific integrity as Feynman warned, and you'll have less politics to worry about.
-PJ
Hi, Heidi ---
We'd love to speak with you about setting up a screening in the Seattle area. Please get in touch via our website, www.137films.org.
Glad you liked the bit you saw!
Clayton
I just caught the very tail end of this on PBS last night and loved the small bit that I saw. I am trying to find out when it will be rebroadcast, does anyone know? I'll check the PBS website to find out.
I've also emailed a couple of organizations here in Seattle suggesting they arrange a screening of this film for the general public.
Editor's note: Visit the ITVS Web site to check local broadcast listings
A few personal responses:
Matt-- its a shame that you left the field, but wonderful that we have a lifelong friend and supporter of this type of basic research.
Tracy-- most of us work on the LHC experiments at CERN as well, so we have a vested interest in seeing those succeed. The film highlights a healthy competition common amongst scientists to be "first" or "best" at something, but this just makes us better. It doesn't, for example, highlight the (again healthy) rivalry between the two Tevatron experiments: CDF and D0. We compete against each other, but we also meet together, and we need each other. In the end our results are combined and become more powerful additions to the knowledge of humanity. If we don't find the Higgs at the Tevatron, we definitely will be looking at the LHC!
Yet one point to get out of the U.S. versus Europe theme is perhaps that the U.S. used to host forefront accelerators and experiments, and be a leader in such cutting-edge science. In a sense we *need* to be host to one of the next big projects for particle physics to remain alive in this country. We cannot train students and postdocs abroad completely-- it is expensive and does not stimulate as much interest. Will we allow our important accelerator technology advancement (for example), which has helped the fields of material science and medicine, to die in this country? I could name a lot of other spin-off technologies that particle physics has produced that has contributed to U.S. leadership in technology in general, but its enough to stick to the point that the U.S. should remain a leader in science in general, whatever example you want to use.
Brian-- to be fair, there is plenty of blame for the science funding cuts to go around. The SSC was cut as you say, but was actually killed after Clinton came to power. Also, at the end of 2007, the devastating cuts to science, and particle physics in particular, were made on the congressional Democrats' watch (my speculation: battle between Bush and the Dems on the budget: Bush wanted war funding but would veto over-spending, so the Dems cut some of his new priorities which included science). And as just hinted at: much of this film was made during the time when the Bush administration was scoffing at science, scientific panels, scientific integrity. Many examples, including modifying EPA reports, dismantling eminent panels of scientists whose findings were not idealogically in agreement with the Administration, and so forth meant a real culture of scientific downfall. At the very end of the Administration, however, they re-prioritized science funding in the budget, but Congress never passed the numbers as they were given.
B. Ellis-- the stimulus package includes funding for many potentially out-of-work scientists and engineers. The new Administration has recognized the role of science and technology in the success of the U.S. economically at the end of the last century, and our economic boom associated with the technological revolution. (And yes, high energy physics labs invented the World Wide Web, not to be confused with the internet which existed long before.)
As a former Fermilab and CERN intern, I wanted to thank you for making this film. Interning at Fermilab summers 2000-2003 (on the B-Tev project), I saw first hand the decay of confidence in the future of the lab. The fear for the long term stability of the field caused me, and other interns to switch to other areas of study. I did not feel that I had the sway as a young student to plot my own future in unsure waters.
This film has reminded me of what can be done and moved me to promote this field and my dear Fermilab in any way I can. Perhaps the new political climate will bring a new chance for public opinion to aid this lab and field. Now more than ever is the time that the public needs to be informed about such projects as it is now that the atom smashers need the public most.
Fantastic documentary, insightful, shows the human side of science. One of the best I've seen in a long time.
Re: the person commenting that the documentary was 'partisan' and anti-Republican -- People like you are the reason I now live in Canada (where incidentally *everyone* watches PBS and loves it!).
Re: the person commenting that they are glad Palin didn't get in the White House -- Indeed, if she had she would have insisted the Buffalo herd be replaced by Moose. And then she would have shut the whole thing down...
Keep up the great work...even if in the U.S. there is 'no broad base' of support for PBS, there are 30+ million people right above your northern border (many of them ex-Americans BTW) watching and cheering (and pledging $$) to support your excellent programming.
I shouldn't have been, but was amazed at the incredible power of the scientists egos. They comment about the government like it is some outside force they (we) have no control over. So it is with US politics today. However, they reminded me of our politicians with their doublespeak. On one hand they claim the discovery of the Higgs particle and the Science is important, yet to them it is more important the discovery is made here, in the USA, by them. This competitive attitude serves no good in academia. When winning and losing become the focus, the "game" is lost.
George Bush Sr. with elements of congress cut funding for the Texas superconducting supercollider even after thay had already dug the huge tunnel. During Bush jr.s presidency no new space shuttle was built so now we have none after a few more flights and will be dependent on the Russians. Its a good example of how a family Presidential dynasty can have profound effects on a nation's science base and capability. High energy physics research is poorly understood by the American public, and all the more reason we look to our leadership to make the right sage decisions. For it to work well we need an intergenerational committment, not a fly by the seat of your pants annual budget process. With the bush's we got an intergenerational deconstruction of our national physics programs.
This was my second time viewing and it has to be my favorite IL film thus far. Very insightful and in an easy to comprehend manner. I want to know more and thought this film could have been a bit longer. I was shocked when it ended, because it seemed to have just started...perhaps a sequel once the Higgs Boton is discovered or not. This is simply fascinating and needs more exposure. Perhaps then we will realize that science is an integral part of life and needs to be supported, but then who will pay for our guns/war/poor administration of a country?
As a follow-up to EAL's comment, if I would have seen such a piece as Atom Smashers during my public school studies and been afforded opportunities to debate the related issues, then my interest in the sciences would have been crystallized. I can only hope that young people are watching NPR Independent Lens and attaining 'aha' moments. The film is digestible to a broad audience in an aesthetically pleasing manner. Particularly effective (for me) were the black and white graphic animations that clarified the scientific processes in whimsical ways. Sound effects/ music throughout the film is brilliant because it goes unnoticed, yet toys with your feelings and thinking. Engaging.
I was excited to see "The Atom Smashers" on Independent Lens. There is plenty about science that I don't understand, but I learned a few things watching this documentary. It fascinated me and made me interested in the future of scientific research in the US (not to mention the world).
Will it help bring funding back to Fermilab and other scientific research? (Not that this is the main point of the film...) I would like to see that happen, but I don't expect to. But that's not a fault of the documentary. I plan to stay informed on the future of Fermilab (and CERN) and the physicists featured in the documentary.
Thanks to these filmmakers for helping re-fuel my fascination with science. I have told a lot of my friends about this film.
i'm so glad that independent lens is airing documentaries like this that bring science into our living rooms. i'm definitely not a Nova type, so i'm not sure i would have sought out this topic on my own, but the film engaged me on both an intellectual and artistic level. the graphics and the protagonists made me want to think about physics--and i know i've never said that before! i agree that the Atom Smashers could be a great addition to a school program.
This was a fascinating documentary. I loved how the story was told through archival footage--even cartoons--about a current and most relevant topic.
I greatly appreciated how the film alerted viewers about the disappointing trends in government's lack of concern for and support of science.
We can only hope this will change so more young people will see science, research and discovery as valued and noble pursuits.
I found the program very interesting, particularly in its showing the humanness, the personalities, of the scientists involved in this very esoteric pursuit. The film's producers did a wonderful job of presenting a complex issue in ways manageable by a reasonably intelligent person, even if not a physicist.
A very informative, and intriguing look into the search for the "Higgs."
I wasn't even aware what a particle accelerator did before I saw the film, but now that I have, I feel like I could explain the way it works to almost anyone, even my little sister, and they would understand.
Truly fascinating.
The Atom Smashers really made me think twice about how all those discoveries in my physics textbook, and what they must have entailed!
I only hope that our new government can reverse the recent science budget cuts that have temporarily slowed the search for the Higgs.
I just want to add that this is a great documentary. Well cut and well told, Brown.
The 80s Donahue footage gives a necessary perspective of the time elapsed involving this search. The roller-blading tango-dancing Fermi team really do come out as the heroes, dedicated to finding this Higgs fellow before the LHC captures him. The science advisor successfully (and possibly accurately) comes off as detached and disinterested in the hunt, which exposes a sad truth in the way things really [don't] work. Hopefully that will change with the big O carelessly tossing around overhead projectors in our lovely earmark state.
Wow! I really appreciated the accessibility of the infomation for the lay person. The graphics were clean and effective. Thanks to the producers, to the Museum of Science and Industry, and to NPR for giving us these sorts of scientific and political insights into research. I'll watch it again.
Neita
Atom Smashers was presented in an updated style and yet easy for even someone unscientific as me to follow. Kind of an Einstein's Laugh-In but instead of jokes and skits,alive with vignettes, a story line, and info. I would like to see it again. A documentary this heady and creative needs to be re-read like a meaty book.
You didn't find a balance -- not even close. The show descended to being little more than a partisan hit-piece. You opted to focus on the Republican administration that signed the budget while glossing over the Democratic Congress' role in the process. This hit home had when the side by side pictures of Bush & Cheney where displayed. The partisan nature of the production was telegraphed early on with the unedited quip of the lab's Director Emeritus. The fact that you and PBS are apparently blind to this bias is astounding, and perhaps a worthy subject of scientific inquiry in its own right. It's no wonder PBS doesn't have a broader base of public support.
From Monica Ross
Co-Director, The Atom Smashers:
Thanks for your comment. We welcome the discussion. Our film is a document of a specific time and place in US history: 2004-2007 at Fermilab, in Batavia, Illinois. It follows a group of scientists as they search for the Higgs boson and go about their lives. During the four years presented in the film: George W. Bush was president; Richard Cheney was the vice-president; John Marburger was science adviser to the president; and in 2005, when the 2006 budget was released, the Republicans controlled Congress.
For four years we recorded these scientists responding to the issues that were surrounding their work at the lab. The fact that there is a moment or two in the film when one of them comments on the administration speaks to what was happening to them during that time. And that's why we included those moments. Even the photos of the president and vice-president are shown in context: they were hanging in the conference room in John Marburger's office where the interview took place. We use them to show how the current administration was represented in that room, on that day.
Of course no work of art is entirely "balanced" or objective. Art involves authorship and point of view and we stand by the themes of the film, Including the idea that what the president and his administration say about science affects how we all feel about science. And another criticism we have heard (from scientists) is that we did not take a stronger position on the value of basic research; we didn't answer the woman on the Donahue Show when she asked why funds for high-energy physics wouldn't be better spent on cancer research. Our answer to them and to you: We are artists and doc filmmakers presenting a story that is going on in front of our eyes. Our job is to raise questions, not supply answers. And in that spirit: we do wonder how this new administration will address these same issues. But, that's another time period and another documentary.
The budget for this project continuously are reduced, and will eventually be eliminated yet, it's perfectly fine for both US presidential candidates to spend a combined billion dollars for a job that anually pays $400,000?
All the big wig ego (left and right wing) politicians need to step off their high perch and let those who are brilliant continue to do their jobs and allow America to be America.
What a timely broadcast of this inspired documentary about the importance of knowing as much about our world as we can -- hope someone on Obama's team was watching and got as excited as the rest of the people I saw it with. Can't wait to view the DVD version. It was particularly fascinating to watch the passage of time and the weight of time on the research project and team. Here's hoping Obama gives the Fermi team more time by giving them more money -- money much better spent on basic science than on homeland security, which has siphoned off much research money since 2001. Thanks for bringing their story to us.
The film did a nice job of showing more than one side of the issues while remaining sympathetic to the scientists.
Isn't it interesting that the "smaller" the particle being sought, the more expensive the search is?
A very well done film. We should be concerned about the declining number of physicists being trained in the U.S. This film should be shown to every high school and college undergraduate science student. The Fermi Lab scientists are brilliant and fascinating people. May their tribe increase!
The Micro world, so rich a reflection on the possible macro- world, is beautifully illustrated in this documentary. A physicist explains, the bigger the microscope the smaller we can see. His words are set against the gigantic events surrounding the timing of "The Atom Smashers" release. This documentary about finding a new platform for observing the micro-world (finding a new particle from which to measure reality more clearly) results in a documentary revealing our struggle to perceive our very identity as a country today. With the blindly-tumbling economy and the continuing struggles for funding in the Arts and Physical Science,"The Atom Smashers" is a reminder of how the most important questions are mostly unanswerable (much like the elusive Higgs) and that until we can reach a new perspective and definition on the very issue of "Funding" in our new world, Frankenstein's Scapegoat is hiding out in the basements of American artists and scientists.
wow, this was an amazing documentary...all i can say is thank god Palin is not in the White House...hopefully the Obama administration will bring back funding for this very important work.
i had no idea about this stuff until i turned my tv on last night and was so in awe watching the scientists write away equation on the blackboard...please keep showing this film...i also think it would be inspiring for high school students.
One of the most challenging parts of the film for us to edit was the conversation going on between the political side of funding (represented by John Marburger, the science advisor to President Bush), the American public (represented by the people in the Donahue audience as well as by Natalie Angier, science writer for The New York Times), and the heroes of our story, the scientists. We tried to find a balance, while staying true to what was happening (and is happening) while our story was taking place. It's one of the central themes of the film --- "should we care about this? Should we spend money to find the answer(s)?" A passage that comes back to me again and again is when John Conway is in the airport, waiting for Robin, and says he views their work as continuing a line from ancient Greece --- fulfilling one of the basic tenets of human nature: the instinct to ask "why?" and, if not that (which is often best left to other pursuits), then especially "how?"
The basic structure of our universe will not be found in the unnatural collisions of micro protons or particles nor will it be found in the outer reaches of macro science or space. Nor will it be found in the complexities of mathematical equations; for the truth of everything is much more simple than thought.
The mathematical solution is simply = and empirically equal or One. The solution was never in the stars or particles of space but simply in the ditch that Thales of Miletus fell in. The solution was himself.
Einstein and physics have been searching for the lion whilst grasping only the tail. They should have known that the tail is the lion and the universe is as simple as that!
It was their own over-reaching complexities that obscured nature's simple truth and is all that stands in their way.
really inspiring documentary.i`m a biologist. people talk about more focus on medical research (cancer), but where would biology be today without huge steps made in physics/chemistry in the past? so the take home message is let them do their job so that we can do ours too.
Scientist used to split atoms and now they are smashing atoms; this is all intuitively intriquing and at the same time awesome with a smidgen of fear at what could be done with this force. The force of nature is the force of god; the search for the HIGGS is the search for god; very hot and by the way so is the scientist drawing circles on the blackboard!!! What is IT that is yet to be found?
I haven't seen the Atom Smashers yet, although I plan to catch it on January 27th when it re-airs on PBS. In response to the comment about graduate students... I think this is cause for intense concern. Education is one the bases upon which America's value comes from, I believe. We need to put more money towards education, scientific research, and ultimately attracting more people to these graduate programs. Physics may be forgotten by many these days in the face of other scientific achievements, but it will always be a field of ever-increasing knowledge and application. Let us reflect upon some of the great advancements in understanding over the past century and remember the value of higher physics education!
The downward trend in interest in physical sciences in the U.S. in general should be a tremendous concern. Much of the prosperity we've enjoyed in the last many decades can be traced back to the investment and interest in science in the post-World War era, and during the competitive Cold War years. We are now losing our edge. As we have recently moved even further away from a manufacturing economy to a technologically innovative economy, others have gathered speed in the latter, and will be strong competitors.
We need to boost investment in science in this country so we can maintain our lead in innovation-- its what we do! And that means that we need to boost our investment in scientists!
One thing that hurts science in this country in general is our model of funding. Year-to-year fluctuations, depending on political whims, are very destructive. What should be realized is that once cuts are made, scientists go away. These are some of our best-trained minds! If graduate students and postdocs leave science to do something else, all because of a year of funding cuts, you never get them back. You cannot just restore funding the next year.
Ditto for scientific projects: you cannot cut one year and then ever expect to recover completely. Our international partners in science are no longer trusting the U.S. to be reliable partners in important endeavors. It is shameful that we made a commitment to ITER, and then with the whim of some aide to Congress or certain Congresspeople, funding was completely cut in December 2007. We promised other countries we would do something, and we need to fulfill that promise!
This also goes for our commitment to build the SSC, on which billions and billions of dollars were spent, and we committed to build, but was then canceled in 1993. We would already have the Higgs in hand, if it is there to grasp, had that project continued. And now the International Linear Collider, which Fermilab would like to bid to host as the next big science machine in this country: with random cuts in R&D on this important project, the international community is now saying that the U.S. is no longer a reliable partner, and will likely not take any bid to host this project in the U.S. seriously.
Where has our leadership gone???
Remedy? We should rethink how we fund science, and how we fund large projects. We should make international agreements, much like what Congressman Sensenbrenner was able to do to fund US participation in the LHC, and follow through with those funding agreements in spite of year-to-year budget bickering.
Science should never be a victim of politics. Period. We cannot be serious in science until we get our acts together and act like a mature society, one with planning, forethought, and one that values the scientific process.
The technological and economic consequences of being a scientific powerhouse are huge. The consequences of being sporadic, random, and devaluing science and technology are also huge, but not in our favor. Other countries are beginning to lead the way...
Higgs was just one of six who theorized this particle. The Americans (Hagen, Guralnik) were first and had the most complete version of this.
