E-mail a friendJeff Zucker
airdate January 27, 2004
As Entertainment President, Zucker oversees NBC's entire entertainment schedule. The five-time Emmy Award winner took the helm after serving as executive producer of the Today show. Zucker earned his stripes at the network, starting as a researcher for NBC Sports, straight out of Harvard. Overachiever that he is, Zucker says that after two brushes with colon cancer, he tries not to take anything for granted.
Jeff Zucker
Tavis: Nice to have you on.
Zucker: My pleasure.
Tavis: I started this show just a couple moments ago by literally doing a rundown of where you were at 25 and 28 and 35 and 38, and before I get too deep into that, are you tired of being called a "whiz kid" yet?
Zucker: Well, I think as I age, every year that goes by, that gets less and less, so it only reminds me that I'm getting a little older.
Tavis: Yeah. Your story is a phenomenal story, and I just tried to highlight this thing, but what do you say to people in short who look at you and wonder how a guy who is 38 could have ascended to this perch at such a young age?
Zucker: Well, I think--You know, I really do believe it's a lot about hard work and drive and making sacrifices. I made a lot of sacrifices when I was younger, out of college, and gave up opportunities to travel and to date and to do all those things at that time and poured myself into work and made sure that I did everything I could, and I was very driven, and I think anybody can have that opportunity. I think it's a matter of dedicating yourself to getting your foot in the door and then making yourself indispensable, and I don't think anybody should ever believe that they can't get somewhere where they want to go.
Tavis: Before I get to the fun stuff like what you're going to do to replace 'Friends' on NBC--
Zucker: That's the easy stuff right there. Yeah, that's easy.
Tavis: Before I get to the easy stuff, I speak at schools all the time, and I've known you for a long time, so I know you speak around the country as well when you can fit it into your schedule. What do you specifically say to young women in high school, college campuses, or people of color who look at your story and are impressed by it? And one has to be impressed. I've used you as an example a thousand times about hard work and perseverance and compartmentalization, and so I love your story like anybody else does. But what do you say specifically to women and to people of color who look at themselves, who would love to be doing what you're doing in this entertainment business, and with all due respect to your talent and to their talent as well, they know that they could not be a Jeff Zucker, because they don't look the part, they're not the right gender. What do you say specifically to those folk who are empowered by your story but don't see it in their future, certainly not at 38?
Zucker: Yeah, well, look, I mean, obviously I understand the difficulties that some people might see in getting to the positions that I have or that even you have, but the fact is, I think it's incumbent upon people who are in positions that I have or that even you have to open those doors and make the opportunities available, and I think what I'd say to them is, don't let us off the hook. Keep pushing us and demanding that we give them those opportunities, because you're right. They're just as talented and just as driven, but I think it's incumbent upon people like you and me who are in these positions to give people who might not have those opportunities naturally the chance to prove themselves. As you know, you've known me for a long time. As you've said, I have no doubt that there are many people who can do these jobs.
Tavis: Let's talk about diversity in television or the lack thereof and the progress or lack thereof that you think is being made. Just recently on this program, we had Aisha Tyler, who you well know, you know, was on 'Friends' for a number of episodes. So they finally found a black friend after all those seasons. But tell me, speaking of 'Friends,' what you think about diversity in television. We're making progress. We're making progress fast enough. What more ought people like you be doing on that front?
Zucker: Well, look, you know, I'm proud personally of the job that we've done at NBC. I don't think you can--You know, many times, shows like 'Friends' and 'Frasier' get held up for a lack of diversity. The fact is, those shows when they came on 10 years ago, you know, those shows were unique to their setting and were true to what, you know, the creators of those shows believed. Of course, they had come on the heels of programs like 'Cosby' and 'A Different World,' and so, you know, I don't think that you can hold it against any of those shows. When I look at NBC today in particular, I'm proud of what we're doing from a diversity standpoint from the shows that have been around for a long time, shows like 'ER' and 'Third Watch,' that are incredibly diverse, to new programs that we have on the air like 'Whoopi' and 'The Tracy Morgan Show' and a program like 'American Dreams' that airs Sunday nights, that deals with issues of race and class like I think no other show does, so I actually think that we're doing a good job with regard to that, and I don't think that, you know, it should ever be said that, you know, that's where we're gonna put our black comedy or, you know, that's where we're gonna put our Latino comedy or--You know, I think the fact is, we want to put on good shows, but I think in order to have a broad audience watch us, they have to see themselves on television, and they have to see themselves in comedies, and they have to see themselves as doctors, and they have to see themselves as policemen, and I think that's, you know, something that we've been very conscious of at NBC in the last few years and that I'm actually proud of. As I get ready to move back to New York and do some new things, one of the things that I look back on is that this is something that we were conscious of. You know, were we perfect? No. Did we succeed in every way we wanted with regard to diversity? Of course not, but I am actually proud of some of the steps and things we've done.
Tavis: Since we've mentioned 'Friends' now 2-3 times, let's go there, shall we?
Zucker: Do we have to?
Tavis: Yes, we have to. Because you have to go there, 'cause you've got to replace it with something, so what do you do?
Zucker: Well, look, I mean, obviously, I don't think you replace 'Friends.' It's a daunting task, and I hate to think about it. The fact is, luckily we have 'Friends' for another couple months, and then, come the fall, I don't know what's gonna replace 'Friends.' As I said, I don't think you replace 'Friends.' Luckily, we have a spin-off of 'Friends.' Matt LeBlanc is gonna continue to play the character of Joey. But again, I don't think we can expect that or any other show to be 'Friends.' I think you don't know what's gonna emerge, you don't know what's gonna take its place, and probably nothing can take its place until 'Friends' goes away. Anything operating in the shadow of huge successes like 'Friends' probably can't emerge while that's on the air.
Tavis: This may be an impossible question to answer, but if anybody can handle it, you can. When you're sitting in your office and these folk come in and pitch you this idea, this idea, and this idea and that idea, because this isn't, you know, an exact science, what you do--television programming--what happens to you inside here? How do you know this is something I at least want to give 'em a shot, I think this will work?
Zucker: You know, as you say, there's no guarantee. The fact is, 90% of all new television shows fail, so the odds are that anything somebody pitches you is probably not gonna work. You have to just go with what you want to watch on television.
Tavis: You, as in Jeff Zucker?
Zucker: As in what I would want to watch. You know, so that's what I think we've done in programs as I said, like 'American Dreams' or 'Whoopi' or--We have a new show starring Donald Trump called 'The Apprentice.' You know, there are no guarantees, but I would actually want to watch all 3 of those shows, and I think that's the key to success.
Tavis: Tell me--You mentioned that you're going back to New York, and you've been out here for about, what, 5 years now? 3?
Zucker: 3 1/2.
Tavis: 3 1/2. It probably feels like 5.
Zucker: It feels like a little longer, actually.
Tavis: So you're excited about going back to New York City?
Zucker: Well, I am. You know, when I came out here, I knew that it would not be forever, and New York is my home, and my family has always stayed in New York, and I've gone back and forth between New York and Los Angeles, and I'm happy to relocate back to New York. I mean, these have been 3 great years--3 1/2 great years out here, and I love Los Angeles, and I love the community, and I wouldn't have traded it for anything, but on the other hand, being with my family on a full-time basis and relocating to the great city of New York are 2 things that I'm incredibly excited about.
Tavis: Your reality is that you get to go back home. For the rest of us, our reality is so much of reality television these days. Let's talk about that for a second if we can. What's your sense of how far this thing is going to go? Has it gone too far already?
Zucker: No, I don't think so. I mean, look, I think that I always believe you've got to give the people what they want, and there's no question that viewers are telling us they're very attracted to reality programming, unscripted programming, whatever you want to call it. It clearly is what's resonating with them, and I think there's a variety of reasons. I think first of all, you have to remember, reality programming's been around forever, since you and I were young. There were shows called 'That's Incredible!' and 'Real People' and 'Candid Camera.' These programs have been around forever. Clearly, they're a far bigger deal now, and I think the reasons are manifold. I think that, you know, the younger generation of viewers have grown up with their own video cameras, making their own films, playing video games on their computers, using their computers to create programming, and they didn't grow up on being force-fed programming that feels stale to them today. They grew up on MTV. They grew up on networks like that--Nickelodeon, even--and I think that, you know, the programs that have been the staples aren't necessarily what appeals to those younger viewers, and I think that's why we're at a real transitional time between what viewers over the age of 40-45 want to watch and viewers under the age of 40 want to watch, and I think that's why there's so much new programming and so much talk about what's going on in television right now. It feels awkward and weird to people.
Tavis: What about the notion that's somewhere proffered that the folk who do what you do are not creative enough to give us stuff that's interesting, that people really want to watch, that when one reality show hits and it works, that you guys aren't creative enough to figure something else out on this network or that network, so you guys all do the same thing, and we sink into the abyss of reality television?
Zucker: Well, I do think that there is a little bit of pack mentality out here. There's no question that we see something working for somebody else, and we all do jump on the bandwagon, but you know, look, that's always the way it is. You know, we used to come on the 'Today' show, and there used to be one glass-windowed studio--
Tavis: I heard about that one.
Zucker: In New York City, and now there's 5. So, you know, I mean, that's the way television gets done, and we are guilty of that. I don't buy the theory that there's a lack of creativity going on. I think the fact is, you know, there's so many television networks today. There used to be 3 television networks 25 years ago and then, you know, 4, 5, and 6 networks. Now there's 100 cable channels to go with it. There's--You know, there's PBS. There's so many great networks out there doing so much great programming, it's just all over the place.
Zucker: Well, what I say is, the fact is, we love cable television. We are--
Tavis: You've got MSNBC.
Zucker: Well, and we have, you know--And hopefully our merger with Vivendi Universal will close in a few months, and then we'll also have obviously USA and Sci Fi and Trio to go along with Bravo and CNBC and MSNBC, as you mentioned. We're big believers in cable television. I think there's a huge place for cable television, but I would add that there's still nothing like network television. Nothing can aggregate an audience like network television, even a network television that isn't what it was 5 years ago or 10 years ago. We just saw it this week. You know, NBC broadcast the Golden Globes. We attracted more than 50 million viewers. The Super Bowl is this weekend. It's gonna attract more than 75 million viewers. 'The Apprentice' is doing great on NBC. 'American Idol' is doing great on Fox. 'CSI' is doing great on CBS. 'Friends' and 'ER' are doing great on NBC. You put on programming that is compelling and that people want to watch, and they will come, and they will come to network television in ways that they won't come anywhere else. Network television and the power of network television is still paramount. The fact is, you know, maybe in certain cases, we haven't put on programs that people haven't wanted to watch, and that's why people have had questions about network television, but I think those are mistaken. The fact is, if you put on programs and they're compelling, people will come to them.
Tavis: I mentioned that you, back in the day when you were much younger--
Zucker: A long time ago--
Tavis: You, a long time ago, did the 'NBC Nightly News' thing, and now you are overseeing the news division in your new role. What happens when Mr. Brokaw, who's already announced that he's stepping down after the elections in November, what happens to the flagship 'NBC Nightly News,' America's most watched news program?
Zucker: That's right. Well, I think that it continues to be in unbelievably great hands. Brian Williams, who's been at NBC for the last decade and has anchored weekend 'Nightly News' and has been reporting from Iraq and everywhere in the field and this election season, will step in and assume that role and, you know, I don't think anybody's under the illusion that--You know, obviously Tom Brokaw, who has sat in that seat for 20 years, you know, obviously that's a huge hole for us. On the other hand, into that hole steps, I think the best newscaster and reporter of his generation, Brian Williams, and just as Tom made that transition 20 years ago, Brian will make that transition, and we actually feel great and very comfortable and confident in Brian's arrival on the scene come later this year.
Tavis: And what do we do--What do you do? It's not my problem. It's your problem.
Zucker: Thanks.
Tavis: What do you do to make MSNBC more competitive? Everybody knows they lag behind Fox, they lag behind CNN. And you guys have been at this for a while, and you're so good at the 'Nightly News' thing on the networks now with Brokaw, but MSNBC is still lagging. What do you do there?
Zucker: Well, look, I don't think we've ever denied the fact that it's a very competitive landscape in the cable news arena, and there's some very strong competition, and making MSNBC more competitive is certainly one of our goals in the next year and something that has been difficult the last 7 years, and we've had our ups and downs there, and I don't think anybody has a silver bullet. If we did, we would have used it already and fixed it. But as we look around the company, things are incredibly strong and in good shape, and MSNBC is something that we want to continue to work on.
Tavis: By now, I suspect, having done enough of these interviews, you've been asked everything but not by everybody, so let me ask, uh, because this, to me, is one of the more remarkable parts of your story. For those who know your story, know that you were diagnosed with cancer some years ago, and you have not only beaten the odds of succeeding in the way that you have at such a young age, but you beat back cancer. Talk to me about what kind of perspective winning that fight now has given you.
Zucker: Yeah, well, there's no question, and I like talking about it, because I'm not ashamed of it or anything like that. And the fact is I consider myself-- even though I was diagnosed with cancer twice--I consider myself the luckiest guy in the world, because we found it, and we were able to deal with it, and, um, and I thank God every day for that. The fact is I do think it changed me, both as a person and--personally and in the workplace. I think it did give me a new perspective. I think that you do, you know, when you're faced with your own mortality, I think you do begin to understand what's important, and I think before I had cancer--and the first time I was diagnosed was in 1996--I think that I was incredibly driven and ambitious and caught up in every little thing and wanted to be involved in every little thing and wanted to make every little decision and all of that. The fact is, once you go through an operation and chemotherapy and not knowing whether or not you're gonna live or die, you understand that not every little thing matters quite as much, and I think personally I became a better person, and I became a better manager, because I think you learn not to sweat the little stuff and not get so caught up in every little thing that happens to you or every little decision.
Tavis: I hear the large response. Let me probe a little bit further. Are there specific things--just one--that you value more and something that you place no value on anymore, that doesn't mean anything to you anymore because of this experience?
Zucker: Well, you know, listen, I think all the cliches are true because I think the reason cliches are cliches is 'cause they are true.
Tavis: 'Cause they're true, yeah.
Zucker: But, you know, you realize that nothing matters more than your family and not going through anything like that alone or ending up alone or anything like that. And, you know, I think that my wife, who got me through my bouts with cancer and then the subsequent birth of my 3 children--I think you come to value each of those things even more. And in terms of the thing that you don't care about anymore is, you know, I think that--I think what happens is you begin to understand that nothing matters but what your family thinks. And, you know, especially when you're in positions like you're in or that I'm in or people are gonna say things about you and take shots at you and criticize you, and, you know, I think you learn you can't worry about that stuff. You have to do what you think is right and be fair and know that you go home to your family at the end of the day and all that matters is what they think.
Tavis: What gets you up every day? And I ask that question against this backdrop: it seems to me that--that while you're doing remarkably well--and great title and good money, I assume, and good stock options and all that good stuff--what you do is not easy. It's a very difficult job, and, I tell you, what you do is something I would never want to do, because it's not just the criticism, it is that--what we said earlier--it's not an exact science, and yet you get up every day trying to make this thing work. Why? Why this? You could have done a thousand other things, 'cause you're gifted, but why this business of trying to make television work for the American public?
Zucker: Well, I always figured if and when this is over or it doesn't work out, that maybe I can get a talk show on PBS.
Tavis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't say that too loudly. I may be canceled tomorrow.
Zucker: No, not a chance. This show's too good. But, um, you know, I think what gets me up every day is knowing that it's not an exact science, that nobody knows, and the ability to--
Tavis: But that's scary, because the risk factor, the fail factor, the fear factor is a lot higher, is it not?
Zucker: Well, of course, but I, you know, that is exactly what brings me to work, is knowing that, you know, nobody knows exactly what they're gonna do or what's gonna work, and so you do your best, and you bring your intelligence to it, and you bring your emotional intelligence to it, and you bring your gut to it, and you never know when you wake up the next day if what you aired last night was good or bad in terms of what people wanted to see or not. You never know, and I think that's the beauty of the whole business.
Tavis: A lot of folk, as you know, call this TV thing the idiot box. What, for you, is, today, the best thing about television, and, honestly, what's the worst thing about television as we know it?
Zucker: Yeah, I don't buy this whole idea that it's an idiot box. I think actually television today is better than it's ever been.
Tavis: You believe that?
Zucker: I do, and I'll tell you why.
Tavis: I mean, more choices doesn't mean better, though, Jeff.
Zucker: No, but I think it does. I think that there's so many unbelievable programs, both entertainment spread across the dial, news and information shows. You know, programs like this one would not have existed 20 years ago, which is great. I mean I think we're all the better for it. I mean, the fact is there's so much more news and information out there, and there's so many terrific entertainment programs spread across the dial. You know, there are some bad programs, of course, but there's always been.
Tavis: But not on NBC.
Zucker: Well, look, there's always been bad programs everywhere. I went back and looked at some old schedules of NBC from 10 years ago. I couldn't believe that these were the programs that were on the air.
Tavis: Don't call any names.
Zucker: Yeah, I won't give any names, but you know, the fact is I think that we're in a golden age of television. I really do believe that. I think that there are great programs all over the place, and I think the fact that the viewer has the choice to watch so many different shows on so many different networks is what makes it great.
Tavis: I've got about 45 seconds left with you. One of the things that you are doing is starting your season early this year. Why?
Zucker: Well, we have the Olympics the last 2 weeks of August. Then the traditional television season starts after the Emmys in late September, and I thought waiting the 3 weeks in between the end of the Olympics and the end of September was silly when we were gonna have this huge promotional base in the Olympics, millions and millions of viewers--
Tavis: That makes sense to me. I could've made that decision.
Zucker: Well, you know, but I think why people didn't necessarily believe that we would do it is because it's never been done before, and so, the fact is, you know, I think that we're in such a watershed time in television, you can't necessarily play by all the old rules.
Tavis: A whole lot of what you're doing has never been done before, and I'm glad you're doing it. Nice to see you.
Zucker: Tavis, I just want to say I'm thrilled with your tremendous success, both here and on the radio, and I remember when you used to come on the 'Today' show when I was there.
Tavis: This is a mutual admiration society.
Zucker: I just--I'm so proud of you.
Tavis: Nice to see you, Jeff. That's our show for tonight. As always, you can catch me tomorrow on NPR. See you back here tomorrow night. Thanks for watching. Keep the faith.
Back to January 27, 2004