TONIGHT
E-mail a friendJ. Kenneth Blackwell
airdate February 5, 2004
J. Kenneth Blackwell began his career as a middle school teacher and later became an associate professor of education at Xavier University in Cincinnati. He was first elected to public office in 1977, and served as Cincinnati's mayor before being elected as Ohio's Secretary of State. Blackwell is an outspoken school choice advocate and has written commentaries in major newspapers across the U. S.
J. Kenneth Blackwell
Tavis: Two very different interpretations of same-sex marriages made headlines this week. The state of Ohio passed one of these most sweeping bans on gay marriages, including a ban on benefits for domestic partners. But yesterday, the Massachusetts supreme court upheld their ruling which says a ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional. Among those supporting the ban in Ohio is Republican Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, who joins us tonight from Cincinnati. Secretary Blackwell, nice to see you, sir.
J. Kenneth Blackwell: Good to be with you, Tavis.
Tavis: Glad to have you on. Let me start by asking you what the distinction is between what they said in Massachusetts and what you all have said in Ohio that apparently your governor Bob Taft is about to sign.
Blackwell: Well, I think essentially we in Ohio believe that marriage has both theological as well as historical roots as being a union between one man and one woman and that the laws of our state protect that--the sanctity of that form of traditional marriage.
Tavis: It appears, though, as if--from my readings--I want to make sure I'm clear on this--that what you all have done in Ohio actually goes farther than what they have done in the state of Massachusetts, correct?
Blackwell: Actually, what happens is that we join 37 other states with the general defense of traditional marriage. We join Nebraska on the issue of benefits for state employees.
Tavis: So no benefits for same-sex couples in Ohio, correct?
Blackwell: In terms of state employees.
Tavis: Right.
Blackwell: Private businesses, municipalities with their own separate charters can do as they please.
Tavis: And in Ohio you will not recognize same-sex unions from other states, correct?
Blackwell: That's correct.
Tavis: OK. Let me ask you how big an issue you think this is going to be. I asked that question at the top of the show, and obviously not at all rhetorically, but how big an issue do you think this is going to be in this election year? President Bush has intimated--and we're just expecting him to say, you know, any moment now--that he is going to put all of his weight behind a constitutional amendment if need be to make sure marriage remains defined as it is now.
Blackwell: I think it's gonna be a big issue, Tavis, and it's gonna come at a time when this country is a 49/49 state. President Bush is the love-him-or-hate-him President, and this election is gonna be between whoever the Democratic candidate is and the President and who can get their base out. Traditionally, it's a 40/40/20 split--40 Democrat, 40 Republican, 20 undecided, and the fight is over the undecided. At this time, it's probably 45/45, 46/46, with 8 undecided, and that means that people are going to look at how to get their base out. You know, it's very interesting to look at demographic shifts, and so the blue states, the red states are probably going to remain the same. This is not going to be a national election, but it's going to be 50 state elections, and we're going to be in a race for Electoral College votes. 20 states have voted in the last 3 presidential elections have voted for the Democratic candidate. They comprise 260 Electoral College votes. I tell you right now, this is going to be a close race.
Tavis: I want to talk about more issues in just a second, but let me stay with this same-sex issue here for just a second. Tell me what you think this issue does now for the Democrats. The Democratic party, as opposed to the Republican party, is the party, obviously, that wants to play or positions itself, at least, promotes itself as the party for the least among us, and they have the most broad base, as compared to the Republican party. What does it do for any Democratic candidate, whoever it might be--Kerry, Edwards, whomever it might be--what does this issue do to their campaign?
Blackwell: Well, I think it puts them in a situation where they have to say that they will not defend traditional marriage. This is an issue that breaks across partisan lines heavily towards the defense of marriage. So it puts them in a balancing act where they have to either say that they're against the defense of traditional marriage and for wholesale redefinition of marriage, or they have to say that they are for the support and defense of traditional marriage, but they're for equal protection, and it will, in fact, be incumbent upon them to articulate the legal constructs that allow for that to happen. But again, this is gonna be one of several issues that divide this country. We still have the abortion issue. We still have faith in the public square, you know, whether or not the wall of religion, separating religion and--and the public square is being played out right.
Tavis: What do you make of that? I mean, here we live in a world where we decry routinely the fact that our country has run amok. Everybody upset about Janet baring her breast. We talk about violence in our society. We talk about the lack of health--I mean, everybody's suggesting that our economy and that our world, quite frankly, is run amok, and what I hear you suggesting to me is that this election, interestingly, may turn on a long list of moral issues.
Blackwell: I think it really comes down to a fundamental understanding that you cannot have a genuinely free society unless it's on a moral foundation. Dr. King was fond of saying that we share a moral universe, and that means that we have a general same sense of what is right and what is wrong, and that is what gives us the possibility of correcting courses and changing situations in society that might not be right. So that's--that's gonna make--these cultural issues are gonna be a big issue, but I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that the economy and job creation and economic growth is not going to be also a defining issue.
Tavis: I think you're right about that. Let me ask you this. I'm looking at you. I know that you're the Secretary of State in Ohio. I know that you are a Republican. Now, unless the tint on my screen is wrong, you're also an African-American, which raises an interesting dilemma for me--a dynamic, I should say. I raised this issue, I think, a couple of weeks ago on this program--maybe with J.C. Watts, another black Republican. But let me ask you, now that this story has made big news again this week, thanks to Massachusetts, thanks to Ohio--the numbers you know better than I do, as well as I do--African-Americans, more than any other group save the Christian right, support the President on his definition of marriage as we know it. I'm wondering whether or not you think, as a black Republican, that here is finally an issue that your party can use to pick up black votes? Because if black folk oppose redefining what marriage is, is this an issue where you guys can gain some ground finally, as Republicans, with black voters?
Blackwell: I think on the cultural side of the initiative, you're absolutely right. We, in fact, can say, "Look, on this issue, we share a policy objective." We understand that if we're gonna turn the situation around and lift more people out of poverty, this is what they need to do: one, they need to finish high school; 2, they need to get a job--any job--work hard at it, get married, stay married, have children, and buy a home. That means that on the issues of closing the gap of homeownership between blacks and whites, solidifying the traditional family, and educating our kids--those are 3 issues upon which the president can speak to the African-American community and be competitive. Job creation is the big deal.
Tavis: Right. Like it or not, there are a lot of folk who use the civil rights movement as a litmus test for all sorts of struggles. The gays and lesbians are using it now. The animal-rights activists have used it. Women's rights have used it. Everybody use the civil rights movement as a litmus test and as a justification, as a benchmark--as a backdrop--for their fight, their struggle. What do you say then to people who say that, for black folk, "Y'all didn't like it when we had separate but equal"--and in May of this year, we will celebrate the 50th anniversary of Brown vs. Board of Education decision that ruled unconstitutional "separate but equal"--unequal, as it were--but the question here is this: what do you say to folk who say that, "Y'all black folk didn't like it when it was separate but unequal, and why should gays and lesbians have to accept civil union vs. marriage? It's separate and unequal."
Blackwell: Well, first, let me just say that if you look at the gay community across the country and in Ohio in particular, one of the highest per capita income groups in Ohio, in the country--influential in terms of the corporate ladder--there doesn't seem to be any glass ceiling. You have a lot of openly gay corporate executives. So the reality is that the barriers that have been in fact put in front of black people and Latinos as a consequence of something that was genetically determined at birth as opposed to people who choose a particular lifestyle, I think it's a false comparison.
Tavis: Yeah, we could have that choice debate all day long. I can see the e-mails coming in now--"We didn't choose to be gay. We were born this way." And we'll get to that. I promise we'll come back to that.
Blackwell: That's a robust discussion, even in the gay community.
Tavis: It is indeed a robust discussion in that community. Let me ask you before my time runs out here. As I mention again, you are the Secretary of State, but there's a big rumor that you're gonna run for Governor in Ohio and that, if elected, you would be only the second African-American elected Governor in this country since Reconstruction. The first Republican--Doug Wilder, of course, being a Democrat in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Are you really gonna run? And how serious are you about this?
Blackwell: I'm very serious. I've had the good fortune of being the mayor of my hometown. I've been the Treasurer of this fine state here in Ohio. I've been a U.S. Ambassador and an Undersecretary of the U.S. Department of HUD. I think I'm ready to put on the hat of Governor and to lead this state to growth and prosperity and opportunity. And let me just say this to you, Tavis. There is a real difference between defending marriage and advocating hateful, uh, gay-bashing. I, in fact, have worked my entire career to make sure that no minority group is persecuted and the human dignity of all people is respected.
Tavis: Let me ask you whether or not you think the Buckeyes, the folk in Ohio, are ready for Kenneth Blackwell, a black Republican, as the top executive of the state.
Blackwell: I think so. The fact of the matter is that folks elected me Treasurer of this state. I was the top fiduciary in the state. That's a statewide election, and now I, in fact, oversee all elections in the state, so when people of this state trust me with their votes and trust me with their money, I think they're ready to trust me to be their Governor.
Tavis: How much campaigning are you gonna do for George W. Bush between now and November?
Blackwell: Well, we're gonna do a lot of work in Ohio. Let me just tell you--Ohio is the battleground state. There hasn't been a Republican president elected or reelected without carrying Ohio, and George Bush, when you factor out Ralph Nader, only won Ohio by one percentage point. This is a battleground state. It's gonna go right down to the last day.
Tavis: I think you're right about that, and I suspect in the coming weeks and months we'll get a chance to talk more about it. Secretary of State of Ohio J. Kenneth Blackwell, nice to see you. Thanks for coming on.
Blackwell: Thank you, Tavis. Good to see you. God bless you.
Tavis: You, too. Up next, Grammy-winning gospel singer Donnie McClurkin. Stay with us.
Back to February 5, 2004