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• Mr. McClurkin's official site
• Mr. McClurkin talks to Tavis on NPR

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Tavis: Donnie McClurkin's world as a child was filled with violence, alcoholism, and abuse, but through his church and his music, and, I suspect, his faith, he found a way to rise above his troubled youth, and now he is a Grammy-winning gospel singer who's once again nominated this year for a Grammy. He's currently featured in the documentary "Higher Ground: Voices of Contemporary Gospel Music." Here's a clip of Donnie performing "I'm Walking" from his latest CD "Again."

Donnie: I'm walkin' in authority, livin' life without apology, it's not wrong dear, I belong here, so you might as well get used to me, my mother may not be the queen, but my father's king of everything, I'm adopted into the family so I guess that makes me royalty...

Tavis: Ah, Donnie McClurkin.

Donnie: Hey, there, Tavis. How you doin'?

Tavis: I'd love to talk to you, but I wish they could play some more of that. That sounded good.

Donnie: I'm just sitting here obsessing over it, you know?

Tavis: Ha ha! How you been, man?

Donnie: I've been doin' pretty good.

Tavis: You look well.

Donnie: Well, you know, for an old guy.

Tavis: You're doin' all right, man. What is it about gospel music for you that still has you doing it? And you know I ask this against the backdrop--we've discussed this before privately--I ask this against the backdrop of the fact that so many artists--practically every artist, every black artist I've ever talked to started in the church, and then they find a way to kinda do something over here, a little something over here, you know. And they never forget their roots, they never get away from their roots too far, but they do something more secular. You have found all kind of success now, and unless you've got to tell me something on this show that I'm unaware of, you are still doing this gospel thing, and that's all you do.

Donnie: That's all I do, that's all I'm going to ever do, because it is not just a music form for me. It's not just--It's not an art form. It is really an extension and an expression of my life. It's a walk that I walk. It's a commitment that I've made between me and God, and He is the inspiration for every song. So I can't take that inspiration and use it for any other reason.

Tavis: In this--in this new documentary, "Higher Ground," you talked about the evolution of gospel music, the roots of gospel music, and you start back in the day and bring it up to contemporary times. What is it about gospel music that is such an--that is so enduring?

Donnie: Well, gospel music isn't like any other kind of music. It's not like soul music. It is divine. It has a divine origin, and it has a divine message. It's inspirational. I mean, it lifts you up. It ministers to your hurt, to your need. It gives you encouragement. It inspires you. It fulfills the whole gamut of what music should fulfill. It touches the whole entire man. And so no matter what field or walk of life you're in, there's something in gospel music that can get down to the core of the person, and give them hope and give them assurance, give them confidence. That's what makes gospel music so potent. It has a divine origin.

Tavis: What is it about gospel music then--not that white folk can't appreciate gospel music, but certainly it is a tradition longstanding inside of black America--what is it, what is this organic connection between black folk and gospel music versus gospel music and somebody else?

Donnie: Well, you know, its origin is from the slaves. Its origin is from the spiritualism, Negro spiritualism that spoke about hope, that spoke about hope beyond the oppression. It gave them an inspiration to endure the stuff that they had to go through, and that increased their faith in God. They were always singing about the hope to come, the freedom to come, the Lord blessing them, the Lord getting them through, nobody know the trouble that they see. And it was an expression--it was a way that they expressed their sorrow and their faith. So it's been synonymous with our black experience since we were brought over here, and it is continually perpetuated from generation to generation. I know a lot--I travel around the world, and there is so many Caucasians, Hispanic people, that love this form of music because it deals in a way that no other music deals. You know, and I don't mean to be, you know, biased, but the C.C.M. music, the contemporary Christian, which was mostly Caucasian, they don't understand the struggle that we--that birthed this music and how it brought us to a point of being able to endure all kinds of hardness with our faith in God. And all of our thoughts, all of our experiences were put to music whether in the cotton field, whether in the slave master's house, whether in our private little brush arbor meetings, that is how we expressed ourselves and without any music. I mean, you've heard us sing.

Tavis: A cappella.

Donnie: Yeah, just nothing but your foot and four-part harmony, perfect, from the oldest mother to the youngest children. And that has been our source of encouragement and hope. That's why it's synonymous with our ethnicity, because it was birthed out of our struggle.

Tavis: I would assume that, as is the case with anything that evolves--And when you talk about the evolution of gospel music, if it's like anything else that has evolved, there's gotta be some good and some bad in the evolution. So tell me--Since you did the documentary, I'm gonna put you on the spot here, absolutely. Tell me the best thing about gospel music as it has evolved and what the worst thing about gospel music is as it has evolved.

Donnie: Well...ha ha ha. You're killing me.

Tavis: You can handle it. You can handle it. I'm praying for you. You can handle it.

Donnie: Let me start with the worst thing. The worst thing is that it has become so commercial that in some aspects it's lost its potency.

Tavis: Somebody would say, "Stop, Donnie. Donnie McClurkin, I know you didn't say that." 'Cause you selling more CDs than anybody right now!

Donnie: Yeah, but that's sales. I'm talking about our commerciality as far as our expression.

Tavis: The sound.

Donnie: Yeah. We water it down. We make it something so smooth and so slick that it loses its real essence. Or we start to remove the message, alter the message, so that we can be television-friendly and not offensive. But the message of Jesus has always been the core of gospel music. So you can't replace Jesus for "Him" or "love" or "it" and think that you're gonna have the same--Steve Harvey was talking to me once and he was like, "Man, I'm just so tired of hearing this so-called gospel music, talking about Him and love. I wanna hear names." And you know Steve, he's crazy. But it was so poignant what he said. That is the core of gospel music--Jesus. So that is the bad part of it. We start to become so commercial and so conscious of being accepted that we've alleviated some of the main things that make gospel music what it is. The best part of gospel music is that it has been so enduring and so potent that it has broken down all barriers, it has broken down all walls, and it has gone into the television. It's gone into the mainstream movies, you know, "Fighting Temptations." I just did a soundtrack for Tom Hanks' movie that's coming out called "Ladykillers." They use nothing but gospel music through the whole entire movie.

Tavis: In a Tom Hanks film.

Donnie: Nothing but gospel music through the entire movie--not just the soundtrack. Through the entire movie. So we're singing old Sam Cooke and old Soulsters music. This has gone through all the different transformations and has broken down all the walls. So now we're in major movies. Now we're on mainstream television. Now we're on the secular radio stations, because the message is just so powerful...and then the demonstration of the message through the song is so powerful that it can't be ignored.

Tavis: I'm glad you said that, because you have done what most artists can only dream of doing, with gospel music, that is, to be heard on secular radio, to be heard on urban contemporary radio every day, and what's fascinating to your credit is that you have stayed true to the sound, to the lyrics, to doing what you do, and yet it has worked. You haven't had to do what other folk have done--no names. But some folk--We ain't trying to cast aspersion on nobody here. There's a long list. But there's folk who have watered down what they do to get airplay, and it hasn't worked. You've not altered what you do, and it's working on urban radio. Why? What is it about what you do that's working?

Donnie: I don't know. I don't have an answer to that. Just like Kirk Franklin--the reason why we sing--that was a straight up gospel tune. Sing because I'm happy, sing because I'm free, His eyes are on the sparrow, that's the reason why I sing. Why they took that and start playing it across the country and around the world on all the stations--it's only God. Same reason with Edwin Hawkins. Oh, happy day when Jesus washed my sins. Jesus? In the 6:00 to 9:00? And then they're singing in all the clubs, and they're singing in all the shows. Any secular show, you know, the Tony Bennett--Tony Williams--Andy Williams and Neil Sedaka and Paul Anka--when they sang gospel, they always sang "Oh, Happy Day." To this day, that's the number one gospel song in history. Because of the timing, because of the artists--I have no idea what the reason is except for it's undeniable. There's something that happens when God ordains something that it just clicks. It just works. I had no expectations for my songs to do what they're doing. I had no expectations for the CDs to sell, what, almost 2 million live in London now? I had no idea that I would be sitting on the major secular shows and at the major secular events with people like Snoop Doggy Dogg and Sisqo and them coming up and talking about, "Man..."

Tavis: That's something right there. That's oxymoronic. Snoop Doggy Dogg and Donnie McClurkin. Ha ha ha ha ha! Forschizel muhnizel!

Donnie: I'm tellin' you! He's sitting there with his little chalice, and we start singing "Stand."

Tavis: You and snoop singing "Stand."

Donnie: No, no. He's sitting on the front row. All of a sudden you hear, "Whoo!" and he's standing up and just tears coming down his eyes. And I'm saying, "Who would have ever thought this?"

Tavis: But that song "Stand"...you had to know that song was gonna connect. Come on, Donnie!

Donnie: No. Honest to God...

Tavis: "We fall down, we get up..." You had to know that song was gonna connect.

Donnie: No. Honestly, I did not. I had my sights on other songs. There were other songs on those CDs, I'm saying, "Oh, yeah! That's gonna be the crossover. That's what I'll be singing on Pepsi commercials." You know, the whole 9 yards. You're sitting in the studio: "Oh, that's it! Yeah! Home run!" and you've never heard those songs. You've never heard them, 'cause they suck.

Tavis: Ha ha ha ha!

Donnie: But "We Fall Down" was just something that we would sing at altar calls at the end of concert, at the end of a preaching service. And that was just a personal thing. "Stand" was just something that I taught to a choir once. Then all of a sudden Oprah heard it. Then next thing you know, she's got me on the show singing "Stand."

Tavis: That don't hurt.

Donnie: It doesn't hurt at all. 'Cause she's still--She said, "Donnie, has your CD gone gold yet?" I said, "No." She said, "OK." She started the show off: "This is my favorite CD."

Tavis: Oh, yeah, and that's like multiple platinum!

Donnie: So now I gotta sing "Stand" everywhere I go because Oprah has made it a household word.

Tavis: Well, I don't know if I can make it double platinum for you, but I'm glad you came over.

Donnie: Brother, please.

Tavis: Donnie, love you, man.

Donnie: So proud of you. God bless you.

Tavis: Nice to see you. That's our show for tonight. As always, you can catch me on the radio on NPR, National Public Radio. We'll see you back here next time on PBS. Until then, thanks for watching. From Los Angeles, good night. And as always, keep the faith.