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Tavis: Congressman Charles Rangel is serving his 17th term in the House representing Harlem. He's been a vocal supporter of Senator John Kerry's bid to win the Democratic nomination, introducing Kerry just last week at a campaign rally in Harlem. He joins us tonight from Washington. Congressman Rangel, nice to see you, sir.

Charles Rangel: Always good to see you, Travis.

Tavis: Likewise. You are the most dapper--the most dapper dresser in all of Congress, and you look nice as always. Nice to see you.

Charles: Thank you, Travis.

Tavis: Earlier this evening, there was news that a state of emergency had been declared in Haiti. I know that just days ago you spoke directly to former President Aristide. Before I get to that conversation, what do you make of the fact that things are so lawless in Haiti? Although we were told that we needed--you know, needed some change there, is this what we expected to get? A state of emergency?

Charles: It's so painful the--what the Haitian people are going through. They deserve better from the international community and certainly from the United States. And, uh, to believe that a lot of this pain that they're going through is because of the hoodlums and the thugs that were chased out of Haiti, that is the former army, by then-general Colin Powell. They were put into exile in the Dominican Republic, and now they come back and take over the government, and they do it unfortunately with the fingerprints and the approval of the United States of America. It was we who encouraged Aristide to leave, alleging that his life was in danger and that Haitians would die, and this is what we're leaving, and this is what we're gonna have to straighten out.

Tavis: Let me ask you in a very point-blank and direct way, who do you believe? The story, of course, this week is from Mr. Aristide's point that he was forced out. Secretary Powell, who you referenced a moment ago, said he was escorted out. Who's telling the truth here, 'cause somebody's lying.

Charles: There's not really a conflict here. I just had a chance to question Noriega, who's assistant secretary of state that did the negotiations, and I asked these basic questions. Did the United States tell President Aristide that they will no longer be responsible for his safety? Did they tell him that the rebels were approaching the capital? Did they tell him that his life was in danger? Did they tell him that thousands of Haitians would be killed as a result of this? And did they tell him to make up his mind whether he wanted them to facilitate the leaving? They gave him time to talk it over with his wife, the ambassador called him, he sent someone over, the military was there, the plane was there, and he left. Interesting enough, that would've been a coup by itself, but they insisted that he sign a letter of resignation, and they dictated the terms of the resignation. So if President Aristide says that he felt like he was kidnapped, if Aristide said he was taken out there against his will, the truth has to be that he was scared to death, and he left, and he signed the resignation, which was a condition of the safety for him and his wife. So that we may argue over the question of whether he was actually kidnapped or not, but the fact is it was a coup d'etat, the government was seized by the rebels, and we were the ones that asked Aristide to step aside.

Tavis: One last question on Haiti before I move on to the campaign for the White House this year. There are some of your colleagues in the Congressional Black Caucus--specifically I speak now of Maxine Waters and others--who called for an investigation here. I take it from the way you just articulated your point of view on this that you don't think it rises to the level of a Congressional inquiry?

Charles: Of course it does, not just for Haiti, but Caricom is asking for the restoration of the rule of law. They went out of their way to get the United States to work with them to look for a diplomatic solution. Aristide agreed to it, but it was the rebels and the opposition that said no. We undercut the international community, went along with France, told him to step aside, took him out of the country, and we have the chaos we have today. And so if we find the international community talking about supporting of the rule of law and bringing back democracy, then according to the rule of law, Aristide is still the president of Haiti.

Tavis: All right. Let me switch gears and talk about the president over here, or the would-be president as it were--the guy you're supporting--John Kerry, and let me ask you 3 or 4 direct questions if I might about your relationship with Mr. Kerry. First question: why when you had the chance did you go with Wes Clark and not John Kerry?

Charles: Well, I'm glad I went with Wes Clark, because I was so frightened when I saw President Bush climb into that camouflage costume and have it appear as though he was a fighter pilot when he landed on that carrier and knowing that he had not fulfilled his National Air Guard responsibility, I said, "My God, this man says he's a war president. He's acting like he's a warrior. In order for the Democrats to succeed, we need a real warrior." And at that time it was only Dean that was talking about the war, and fortunately when Wesley Clark got there, everybody started talking against the war. And so that was the reason. I think Wes Clark changed the whole tone and gave the Democrats credibility, from a combat veteran's standpoint, that we can be patriotic and disagree, and of course Kerry has the Purple Heart, the Silver Star, and he's been into combat, and so it was an easy transition for me, even though I'm glad that I supported Wes Clark.

Tavis: And yet your other colleagues, in the Congressional Black Caucus at least, when they had a chance, while you went with Clark, most of the rest of the C.B.C. members went with Howard Dean, a guy from the whitest state in the union. Even though they serve on the hill with Mr. Kerry every day, the C.B.C. members did not go with John Kerry. Now, all of you guys, respectfully, are gonna line up behind Kerry now, but when you had the chance, why did Kerry not rate with Congressional Black Caucus members then?

Charles: Well, first of all, we don't work with him every day. We hardly see a senator in a month. The bodies are separate, as you well know, and it was Dean who was the most outspoken person on the war, not Senator Kerry. I, being a combat veteran myself, I really thought that I'll give credit for Dean for taking the position which the Congressional Black Caucus had taken, but I took it for the political position, and I thought that Wes Clark would have more credibility. But I can really see why people would think that Dean led the way of saying you can be patriotic and disagree with the war.

Tavis: There are 2 schools of thought--there are certainly more than 2, but 2 for the moment, in this question at least--regarding Kerry. Massachusetts, as you well know, one of the most, if not the most liberal state in the union. It is the state of Ted Kennedy, Mr. Liberal. It is the state that got us in this debate about gay marriage just days, weeks ago...the state that John Kerry represents. There are some who say that he oughta have a more--a better voting record on issues that are important to people who are disenfranchised politically, socially, and economically, a record more like Ted Kennedy, fighting for those people on issues on the left. There are other folk who say that he has a voting record that is, in fact, too liberal, that he won't play to the mainstream voter in America. Who's right about John Kerry?

Charles: I think that close to half of the people in this country believe that Bush is right no matter what he's done. Others are for the Democratic candidate, and they gotta support him, no matter what the record is. And I think it's abundantly clear that no voter will be able to say there's no difference between the party. If you want to get rid of steroids, go to Mars, make a constitutional change for same-sex marriage, and you're concerned about putting Jesus back in your life and have faith-based initiatives, clearly Bush should be the incumbent. But if you're really concerned about how did we get involved in this war, was the congress misinformed, how are we gonna get out of this war, how many people are dying every day, was Saddam Hussein worth the sacrifice that we have made and continue to make? How about the people who have lost their jobs, 9 million people that are unemployed today, the fact that we have a tax policy that encourages corporations to move overseas with these jobs--not just manufacturers and blue-collar, but we're talking about white-collar jobs as well. So if we're concerned about the deficit that we're getting in, whether we're dealing with health care, housing, then clearly the Democrats have a better idea. So I really think that we don't know where Kerry has been on his voting record right now, but we certainly know where Bush has been, and we got to get rid of him!

Tavis: If I'm a person of color--well, I am a person of color--but if I'm a person of color or if I'm a woman, how much longer should I wait for the Democratic party to give me a running mate, somebody on the ticket who looks like me--who's of my gender? Is now that time?

Charles: Well, if someone like you can come up and show us that we can get some Electoral College votes at a time that we're gonna have a very close election, because with all of the candidates that are being mentioned now for Vice President, all I wanna see--I don't wonder what she or he looks like, what color they are--I wanna know what states can they bring that we can't normally get, and right now that's what we're dealing with.

Tavis: Does that mean then that a person of color or a woman shouldn't be considered on the short list?

Charles: Well, if they can't bring--If they can't help us win, I don't think they should be considered on the short list whether they're white or black, Jew or Gentile, Protestant or Catholic.

Tavis: But I ask this respectfully: There are a lot of folk watching right now who may very well interpret your remarks as suggesting that since white men have only done it, that white men can only do it. When do people of color and women get a chance?

Charles: When people of color like Jesse Jackson--Jesse Jackson brought in states. And if Jesse Jackson was viable right now, that could bring in states that Democrats can't win, then you bet your life he should be considered as a vice presidential candidate.

Tavis: What about Charles Rangel?

Charles: Oh, no, no. Right now I'm looking at what I can do to take back the House, to win the Senate, and certainly, we got to get this guy out of the White House. I would think that Reverend Sharpton, in terms of identification with the black issues and those that we all aspire for our kids and our grandkids, he would have done much better, and certainly a lot of blacks really wanted to support him, but they were looking at who's gonna be the president and get rid of Bush.

Tavis: Hate to cut you off. Enjoyed talking to you. We'll do it again soon.

Charles: I look forward to it.

Tavis: Thank you, sir. Up next, actress and documentary filmmaker, LisaGay Hamilton with a wonderful piece about Beah Richards. Stay with us. We're back in a second.