E-mail a friendGeorge Carlin
airdate April 8, 2004
George Carlin made audiences laugh for more than five decades with his take-no-prisoners comedy style. He recorded more than 15 albums, won several Grammys and wrote several best-selling collections of his observations of the absurdities of everyday life and language. He was also a television vet, including being the first host of Saturday Night Live and star of more than a dozen HBO specials. The New York native was also known to do serious acting and appeared in several films, including, Jersey Girl.
George Carlin
Tavis: I am delighted to have the brilliant George Carlin with us tonight. I have so much to get to with this comic genius that I'll spare him a recitation of his impressive comedy and show business resume. You know this stuff. But before we dive into a number of issues with George Carlin, here he is in a scene from his latest film, Kevin Smith's "Jersey Girl."
Bart Trinke, sweetly: Yeah, you can stay with me any time, can't you? Yes, you can. Till you're a teenager... with the boys. Then I don't want to know about you. Your daddy really misses your mommy, kid. I miss her, too. Especially right now. Ooh, jeez.
Tavis: Nice to see you, George Carlin.
George Carlin: Thank you for inviting me here.
Tavis: Playing a grandfather?
George: Yeah, a grandpa. Well, I'm 66, you know. It's about--it's about right. I could have played it at 46, you know. You get right down to it. But, yeah, I play Ben Affleck's father and therefore the grandfather of the Jersey Girl. His little daughter has just been born, and the tragedy occurs, and he comes home to me with his infant.
Tavis: That was really a 5-day-old baby.
George: That baby was 5 days old. Yeah.
Tavis: How was that?
George: Well, you notice I had a big hand around that head to lower--I remembered my stuff from my own daughter being a little girl.
Tavis: It's been 30 years now.
George: Since what?
Tavis: Since you did those 7 words...
George: Yeah, I did the--
Tavis: That you can't say on television or radio.
George: Right. 7 words you can never say on television. The word "never" in that title was the key to me. There were words that you could say, depending on what you meant by them. You could talk about a female dog. You could talk about a person whose parents weren't married. You could use those words. You could say-for instance, you could prick your finger. That was fine. Don't finger your
Tavis: Never say.
George: That was the principle of that piece. Yeah.
Tavis: What do you make of what the F.C.C. is doing now and the furor that erupted after Janet Jackson, or Miss Jackson, if you're nasty--what do you make of that furor 30 years after you talked about what you couldn't say? Now it's not just what we're saying. We're saying it. We're doing it. The F.C.C.'s going crazy. What do you make of all this?
George: Well, the whole-you know, there's just a hundred ways you can approach this subject to talk about it.
Tavis: Let's take 50 of them.
George: OK. And let me start one out to begin with. For one thing, this thing has never left. This thing has never gone away. And my case was one where the F.C.C. Sanctioned a radio station. It wasn't a public station, but it was a listener-supported station. No commercials. They sanctioned them for playing my album...with all 7 words. They warned people what was coming, but they played it, and they were sanctioned. One complaint came in. One complaint came in. And they were--by a professional moralist, may I say, a guy who drove around listening to the radio for that reason, I think. But they refused to pay the sanction. They refused the $100 fine. They refused to get a bad mark on their record for license renewal, so they went to court, and they won it. In district court--a 3-man judge and--3-man jur--3-panel court. A 3-judge panel. I knew I'd get it. It was in there somewhere.
Tavis: It was coming.
George: But a 3-judge--2 to 1, they won that in District Court, and then it went to the Supreme Court. F.C.C. said, "Well, we're going to fight this to the Supreme Court." 5 to 4, Supreme Court said "These words are indecent." This was a new category of filth I had created. I didn't know. And I was impassive. I was just a spectator to all of this. So, it happened 30 years ago, but this has gone on in our culture since the 1800s--since the great reawakening. I mean, all these--throwing out the girls from the strip houses. You know, it's just recurring because it is--it considers itself a Christian nation and has a puritanical streak, and this will continue to happen. It's just a big thing now, I think, 'cause it's an election year, for one, and it happened on the Super Bowl--one of the largest television stages in the world. So it drew a lot of attention.
Tavis: What do you make, though, specifically, of the role that the F.C.C. is increasingly playing, though, in a sort of microscopic sort of way?
George: Yeah. Well, the thing we have to remember--people tend to forget when they discuss this-- is that the F.C.C. regulates the assignment of frequencies for radio and television stations. And you have to get a license renewed. And the stations that sell commercials, as opposed to public television--the stations that are commercial also have sponsors that worry about language and image and offending people. So, for instance, PBS doesn't throw those words around out of choice, because they feel it's not in perfect taste. And that's probably a good point. But on stations where there's a guy selling baby food and selling tires and selling beer and trucks at the same-you know--the same evening, uh, he worries about, you know, "We don't want to offend anybody." So you have 2 pressures. You have the puritanical side, and you have the commercial side. And the F.C.C. is very-you know, especially in a political year--and that's an appointed body. People sort of know that, but that's appointed by the President. They serve at his pleasure. So they're kind of his folks. And I think they need to show the right wing that they want to keep in line, 'cause the right wing's a little disappointed in Bush for various reasons. They want to show him that they're doing the work that they said they would, that they're taking care of the house morally, you know? I mean, they got gay marriage dropped in their lap as an issue. That's red meat. Throw that to the right wing, you know. And now we got--we have this. And I think they just kind of said, "Let's go for it." And Howard Stern's been doing this stuff for a long time. And suddenly, boom boom boom boom boom, it comes down on him. These big companies that own all these radio and TV stations, by the way, are big Republican ownerships. You know, you can say what you want about the folks who work for a living, but the folks who own this stuff--
Tavis: How bad is it? I get the sense that I can probably guess your answer, but I'm curious, so let me just probe anyway. How bad is that that you've got a handful of companies that own and control everything?
George: The interesting thing about this country is they talk about how we have freedom of choice, you know? We have freedom of choice. Very limited. If it's an important thing, limited choice. 2 political parties, essentially. 2. Big media companies, 5, 6?
Tavis: Max.
George: Yeah. Oil companies, down to 3 now, I think. Overall. 3 or 4. Banks--the big banks, the big brokerage houses, the big accounting firms...all the things that are important reduced in choice. Newspapers in the city--how many? Used to be 3, 4? Now it's 1 or 2. They're owned by the same people, and they also own a radio station and a TV station. But jellybeans? 32 flavors. Ice cream--all the things that don't matter. The unimportant things, a lot of choices. You know what I say? You know what your freedom of choice is in America? Paper or plastic. That's it, man. It comes down to paper or plastic, cash or charge, aisle or window, smoking or nonsmoking, Coke or Pepsi. These are your choices. Everything else is kind of laid out for you. You get to do what they really want. They do what they want. The ones who own this country, they do what they want.
Tavis: Speaking about choices being usurped or taken away from us, what do you make of--I'm fascinated to ask you this, because all the things that you've been talking about for years are--I mean, we've come full circle on this stuff. That's why I was so fascinated--thank you for coming on the program. But here we are now, 30 years after you were talking about it, with this huge debate--this huge fight about whether or not our civil liberties are being taken away from us. What are your thoughts on--
George: I think if you looked at the record of laws which have been passed in the last 30 to 40 years--there's a thing called social hysteria. Social hysteria is whipped up, generally, by the media. Crime--in Nixon's time, crime was the big social hysteria issue. There's too much crime. They're coddling-the courts are coddling the criminals. We have to have tougher laws. So a lot of civil liberties went away in terms of the rights of criminals and the rights of the accused and people going on trial. These were limited. They were cut down. These rights which are guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Another social hysteria--drugs. The drug thing happened, same thing. Big flow of drugs. We're gonna fight the drugs. We need newer, tougher laws. We need draconian sentences. We need to be able to go into houses. We need to be able to do this if we have reasonable--you know. All of these shortcuts have resulted in less liberties because of social hysteria. The media whips up the frenzy, people get all excited, the Legislature passes it, the President--the Executive signs it, and the Judges--then the judicial branch OKs it sometime later when it gets to them. And what has happened is you have less freedom, less liberties, less civil liberties, less rights.
And the third social hysteria is terrorism. That was whipped up. Now, there's probably a little more cause there. You look at 9/11. It's a very dramatic event. But that, too, has been used, with this Patriot Act, to reduce our liberties. They say, "Well, if you got nothing to hide, what are you worried about?" You know, that old logic. Oh, yeah, good. Tell me about the people that are just getting out of prison because of the DNA, if they had nothing to hide. It's just--listen, this country is owned by the ownership class. They do pretty much what they want. I figure it's like a freak show. Here's what I do. You know what I do? To me, if you're born in the world, y ou get a ticket to the freak show. They give you a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America, you got a front-row seat. So some people are in the freak show. We got our freaks. Then some people, they want to fix the freaks. These are the A.C.L.U. lawyers, environmentalists-- "We must fix the freaks. We're gonna fix 'em up. Oh, isn't that terrible? Let's do this." And then there are folks who just watch the freak show... as me. And some of us get to write about it or talk about it, and I do that.
Tavis: That's you, too.
George: And say, "Look at you. Look how badly you're doing." I don't even--I count myself in. I say, "Look how badly you folks are doing. How did you do this to yourselves? Why did you let them do this to you?"
Tavis: I'm glad you said that, because what I admire most about you and your comedy--and I hope I don't offend you by this term, but your comedy, by my definition, is what I call conscious comedy. You kill me. You make me--you crack me up, you make me laugh, and every time I hear you, I'm laughing. But if I'm listening, I'm also learning at the same time. Is that by design? Did you decide that you wanted to have a comedy of that ilk? Because your comedy really is conscious. I get a lot of folk crack jokes, and they're funny. Sometimes they're not so funny. But when I listen to you, I laugh, and I learn simultaneously.
George: Well, that's a nice compliment to use the word "learn." Sometimes people ask this question. An interviewer will ask, "Is that your intention? Do you want people to think?" And I say, "I don't really--I don't--" You can't-- you're there to get laughs. You're a comedian. Get your laughs. Fix up your laughs. Now, whatever makes you laugh, in an ironic way or a kind of a twisted, detached way--if it makes you laugh, it's funny. You can make it funny for them. And if it's got some thought in it--and I do like to put good ideas to work underneath my-I like my comedy to be sitting on good ideas, good logic, good thought process. So I don't try to make people think, but I want them to know I'm thinking. That's important to me. And I've tapped a lot of areas for my comedy. I've done a lot of nonsense stuff, too. I've done a lot of little world. I've done dogs and cats, and what's in the refrigerator? A place for your stuff, driving. All these things that are universal. But I have other interests, and they are what I call the big issues that will never go away: race, religion, government, business, consumerism. All of these--crime...police. All the things that, more or less, 10 years from now will be about the same as they are today.
George: Sure. Um, I think, first of all, there's a personality of mine on view. There is a... people see in me onstage a person who isn't a threat to them, a kind of a vulnerable figure. I may raise my voice. I may sound a little irritated. People think it's anger. It's irritation, really.
Tavis: Hold the thought. What makes--I'm curious about this-- what makes you say to me that people see a sort of vulnerable figure onstage? Your demeanor, your--what do you mean by that?
George: I have--I have tried to--
Tavis: 'Cause I've never felt sorry for you when I see you.
George: No, but I don't mean vulnerable from a victim's standpoint. I just mean a person who has a softer side, a more potentially human side than just some robot onstage. My manager and I have talked about this thing, this part of what they see, what folks see in me, and he used the word first for me. He said, "There's a vulnerability about you that they see when you talk, especially when you're talking about sweet things, when you're talking about the little human things." And I'm kind of like your Uncle Charlie, who wouldn't hurt you, but he's a bit of a goof, you know? "Oh, that's Uncle Charlie talking. He's OK." So...Uncle Charlie. I forgot who I was talking to for a second. But you know what I mean. Uncle anybody.
Tavis: I wasn't offended by that.
George: Good.
Tavis: So before the letters come, I understood his point. I was not offended. Go ahead.
George: But I use the term on loan from my manager's analysis, so perhaps I can't defend it as well as he would or describe it as well as he would. But there is a thing they see in me which isn't threatening. We were talking about now why I can, quote, unquote, get away with some racial stuff. Uh, and if they know anything about the rest of my work or a lot of my work, they kind of know where I stand on things and that I'm--that I have a kind of, um, a series of issues that I have similar positions on, you know? They're left of center, you know? And I don't know how to answer your question well. That's why I'm fumbling around.
Tavis: No, I accept that. Let me ask you this, then. The flip side of that, I suspect, which is whether or not with all the issues that you've covered--to your earlier point, you've covered so many topics over the years. With all of the things that you have covered, are there things that you absolutely stay away from, subject matter that you won't touch because you think you can't be funny, you think you can't be instructive, you think you can't get Tavis to listen and learn and laugh? Are there things you just won't touch?
George: No, there are not in the largest sense of that question. No, there are not. We could isolate a point that wouldn't be worth making, you know? I probably wouldn't have many jokes about baby rape, but why should I? But I believe this. I believe if you establish the context for an audience-- first of all, that you're not a threat--you establish a context for them in which your risky joke or jokes will sit in that context and they accept that context and you have them on your side and you're talking in that manner, you can establish any subject. Because they say, "OK, he's fine. I'm OK with this. I'm comfortable. Yeah, where's he gonna go with this? Oh. Well, isn't that interesting?"
Tavis: So with the proper context, you believe that anything can be made funny.
George: Can be made funny, and especially if you've given it some thought. And I like to look for a different way into things. I like to look for the side door. It's very predictable, some comics who do political humor or social humor, where they're gonna come into the place from, what door they're gonna use. I like for people to say, "You know, I've thought about that issue a lot, and I have never thought of that point of view. That's really kind of...I don't know if I agree with you or not, George, but I kind of like the way you got there." I like to surprise people with my thinking, with my process, and that's what comedy is. It's surprise.
Tavis: Do you think--I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm fascinated as to whether or not you think that there are too many dumb comics out there. By dumb comics I mean...you made it very clear to me earlier, and I was not surprised to hear-my first time meeting you, but I was not surprised to hear your response when you said to me that you want the audience to know that you are thinking. You put some work and some effort and some thought into this routine.
George: That there are good ideas underneath the jokes.
Tavis: Absolutely. And I respect that, and I'm not surprised to hear you say that. Do you think, though, that there aren't enough comedians who--who do that, or is it not your place to cast aspersion on those other comedians?
George: I think a lot of the people with that set of tools that I'm talking about, the tools that I seem to have, I think a lot of them didn't drift into comedy with those tools. I kind of think analytically, and a lot of those folks just became lawyers, you know? Or writers and teachers. I mean, some of the skills are similar. My particular genetic package and the way I was brought up and the things that happened in my childhood pointed me toward this, and I've lasted all this time 'cause I've stayed at my work, at my stand-up work. I didn't drift off into movies and suddenly ignore my stand-up. I worked at my craft the whole time and try to improve it and got better, just like, you know, you get better playing the violin. You're gonna be better when you're 60 than you were when you were 20. So, um, I just--now I've forgotten the point I was getting to 'cause what was the gist of what you asked me?
Tavis: I was asking you whether or not you think there are too many dumb comedians.
George: No, because, you know, there are levels in any art-and this is an art. It's writing, and it's interpreting the world. I mean, there are dumb movies, and there are smart movies. There are songs that are dumb, that are dumb as hell, and then there's really smart stuff. So that's just true of every walk and every corner of life, I think, that you would find that. I don't think too many would be the right way for me to say it anyway.
Tavis: Speaking of dumb and smart, I don't know if it's because I'm too smart or too dumb, but the one question that I just have to ask you--and I've heard you explain this, or attempt to explain it a thousand and one times, and I still don't get it, admittedly.
George: OK, I hope I get it.
Tavis: There is no critic, no social critic who I think is better at--at critiquing life in America and beyond than you. You're awfully good at this on a stage.
George: Thank you.
Tavis: What I cannot juxtapose is how you can be so brilliant at critiquing American life, politically that is, socially, economically, and not vote.
George: Yeah.
Tavis: You don't vote, and I've seen you try to explain this a thousand times, and I thought I'd sit with you, right across from you, face to face, and maybe this one time, I'm gonna get this.
George: I don't think it's that you don't understand it, 'cause that wouldn't be true of you. I think it's that it's hard for you to accept my explanation. It's a little facile. Um, first of all, the short answer, which has a laugh in it, is I think if you vote, you have no right to complain.
Tavis: Ha ha ha!
George: I always turn that around.
Tavis: Exactly.
George: And I say, listen, here's the deal. If you vote and you put someone in office and they become dishonest or incompetent and they turn out these bad bills and they sign these bad bills and they create a mess, you helped create it. You voted for them. I, on the other hand, who didn't even get out of bed on election day, had nothing to do with it. I have every right to complain about the mess you created.
Tavis: Yes, sir.
George: So that's the easy, facile answer. My answer, specifically, is I don't want to participate in this. I opted out some time ago. I sort of gave up on my species and my culture here in America--the species, human, the culture, American--because I think they have each squandered their gifts. I think we have made wrong turns all along the line, both as a species and as, in this case, the American people. I think people blame politicians when it is their fault. It is their own fault. Where do you think these politicians come from? They come from American homes and schools and churches and universities and clubs, and they're Americans, and this is the best we can do. People say, "they're all--where are the smart people? Where are they?" They're making attack submarines. They're building better bombs. They're building better jet fighters, the smart people. Or they're trying to get a cure to cancer. But smart people aren't attracted to public life. We don't honor public life. Uh, I gave up because, first of all, I didn't see a future for either of these things. I don't see a future for this species. I really don't. And I don't see a species--uh, a future for the way this culture is drifting and the kind of--the kind of interest in the world that we show and that we pursue. And I think we're both headed for a big, big, big fall. But a long time ago, besides that, I said, you know, it's better for me artistically, as a writer, as a person who's gonna criticize, to not participate. It's better to sit out here on a platform somewhere near Jupiter and just say, "Look at that. Oh, isn't that interesting?" 'Cause I know I can't fix it, Tavis, and I don't think it gets fixed anyway, even if I could.
Tavis: So when you have something that you want to say about this war on terrorism, the stage is where you do this?
George: Uh, yeah. In conversation, I would maybe say something, sure.
Tavis: So, say something.
George: OK. Uh, for one thing, it's not a war on terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic. Terrorism is a way to fight. It's a thing you do. We did it in the revolutionary war. You know, Bush calls these people cowards 'cause they hit and run. What do you think those soldiers did in the American Revolution? They hid behind trees and shot the British who had on these bright red things. OK, so enough of that one. So, we're not at war--it's a war on Islam. It really is. It's a war on, in particular, radical Islamists, radical Moslems, who want to--and by the way, will, because you can't beat numbers. You can't beat numbers, and you can't beat fanaticism. And over the long haul, Europe is becoming Moslemized. It's just going to be really terrific to watch, from the freak-show standpoint. And I just think the war on terror is another excuse to do a number of things. Most of them have to do with power grabbing in the world and establishing the hegemony of this country so that there's no other threat to us ever again, ever, ever. That's a Wolfowitz point of view. And Richard Perle and Libby and Cheney and that whole gang.
Tavis: Well, you and I are both freaks, and we'll watch this together.
George: Thanks, man. Excuse my cold fingers.
Tavis: That's quite all right. Nice to see you, George Carlin. I'm delighted to have you on.
George: Thank you very much.
Tavis: Gotta do this again.
George: We will.
Tavis: They say the mark of a good show is that you leave 'em wanting more. I know I want more, so maybe we'll get George Carlin back again. That's our show for tonight. As always, you can catch me on the radio on National Public Radio, and I will see you back here next time on PBS. Until then, thanks to George Carlin for coming by to see us. Thanks to you for watching us. Good night from Los Angeles, and as always, keep the faith.
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