E-mail a friendSen. John McCain
original airdate April 19, 2004
Often called a "maverick,' Arizona's senior senator John McCain breaks GOP party lines and is quite outspoken. He opposed the '01 tax cut, is an advocate for government reform and passionately pushed the campaign finance legislation that bears his name. A potential '08 presidential candidate, McCain began his career as a Navy aviator and spent 5 years as a Viet Nam POW. He's a best-selling author and, in his latest book, Character Is Destiny, pays tributes to men and women who have lived truthfully.
Sen. John McCain
Tavis: Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, is serving his third term in the U.S. Senate. He's a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and a longtime leading voice on the issue of campaign finance reform. He is also an accomplished author now out with his third book, this time on the subject of courage. The book is titled 'Why Courage Matters: The Way to a Braver Life.' He joins us tonight from New York. Senator McCain, nice to see you, sir.
Sen. John McCain: Thank you, Tavis. Nice to see you.
Tavis: Glad to have you on. I know you, and one of the things I've always liked about you, I confess upfront, is that you always put people ahead of politics. So, let me do that now and ask how's your wife doing?
Sen. McCain: She's fine. Thank you for asking, and she's home and making a full recovery. Thanks for everyone's thoughts and prayers on her behalf.
Tavis: All the best to her as she continues what we hope is a speedy recovery. There was a--This was another bloody weekend for U.S. troops. Without going too deep into it, because I want to get to the book, but I certainly would be remiss to not ask you that question here on a Monday night. What gives?
Sen. McCain: Well, what gives is that we didn't have enough forces there. I was there last August and talked to the sergeant-majors and the captains and majors and the colonels, and they all told me that, and I came home and asked as fervently as I could to send additional troops. We're paying a price for that. But also let me point out that things go wrong in wars. That's why we try to avoid them, and the challenge now is to win. We've got to win. We can't afford to lose, and I hope that these young men and women who we've extended for 3 months will understand our gratitude for their service. It's tough when you're gonna go home and they tell you you gotta stay. They'll perform marvelously, but we've got to make better plans to have more troops there for a longer period of time.
Tavis: I don't know anybody, Senator, who necessarily disagrees with you that now that we are there, we have to win. But I think I would tell you in the very next breath with a quickness that folk also feel that there's no exit strategy here. What is the exit strategy here?
Sen. McCain: Give the government over to the Iraqis as soon as possible so that the Iraqi people will believe they're being governed by Iraqis as quickly as possible, ensure security--and that's gonna be the tough part--and then gradually draw down. But in interest of straight talk, Tavis, we're gonna be there for a long time, and that's because of the security aspect. It's now turned into some degree into insurgency. Now Shiias and Sunnis join up, and that insurgency's gonna be really tough.
Tavis: Straight talk express still rolling, I see. Um, before I get to your book, there's another book out today. Uh, Bob Woodward's book is out today, and it's the talk of the town, uh, certainly back in the Beltway. And if I could just kind of in a nutshell suggest to you what I understand this book to say--I've not had a chance to read it--is that President Bush was determined to go into Iraq before 9/11, that it was largely Dick Cheney's idea, that Colin Powell was really the last person to hear about it. And Mr. Powell, apparently for the White House, has spoken a bit too freely in this book. He won't comment on it now, but now he is almost persona non grata inside this administration. What do you make of these revelations in Woodward's book?
Sen. McCain: Well, Bob Woodward is famous for making revelations, to say the least. I'd like to read the book. I know this: that Colin Powell is the most respected man in America. I trust him. I trust his judgment, and, uh, I don't know the interface in all the thing--you know, I'm not taken into the inner circles of the Bush administration, to say the least. Uh, I hope this doesn't divert us from our primary mission of getting this war completed and as quickly as possible, with as few casualties as possible.
Tavis: But, Senator, here's another credible source, though, suggesting that George W. Bush not just wanted to, but was intending to and planning to go into Iraq before 9/11. What do you make of that?
Sen. McCain: I...I'd like to give the president the benefit of the doubt as to what he says. I'm on a commission concerning the intelligence that obviously was not correct that the president was given during the decision-making process, and so I have to be a little careful about making judgments before that. But, look, we have to fix the intelligence system. We know that. We have to figure out why the president was told that weapons of mass destruction were real, and we know that they're not. But having said that, I believe that Saddam Hussein, if he were in power today, would be trying to acquire those weapons and eventually use them, 'cause he'd done it before.
Tavis: One last question before I get to this book about why courage matters. I definitely want to talk about this book about courage. Um, a few days ago, George W. Bush stands in the Rose Garden with Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel, saying we support them. Then hours...days later, they take out--the Israelis, at least, take out one of the leaders of Hamas. Uh, today the White House says that it is the right of Israel to do whatever they've done here. What do you make of what's gonna happen in the Middle East here, now that, uh, now this seems to be on, as if it weren't already?
Sen. McCain: We were in gridlock for--since, uh, President Clinton's attempt at Camp David when he had Arafat and Barak to Camp David--we've been in total gridlock. Meanwhile, acts of terror have been committed. People come into Israel and set themselves off as--as--uh, and kill innocent people. I know how you feel about this, Tavis. There is frustration on the part of the Palestinians' part. I just can't condone that kind of...of, uh--I know that if somebody came across the Mexican border into Tucson in a shopping center and blew themselves up and killed innocent people, my constituents, we'd be demanding that--that we retaliate. Let's hope with this getting out of Gaza Strip and hopefully most of the settlements that we can at least reignite this process of negotiations. And I am fully aware that as long as the Palestinian-Israeli crisis is there, it'll be difficult to make progress towards peace in the Middle East. But I would also argue to you that some of the Arab leaders use the Palestinian-Israeli issue as a diversion from the terrible economic conditions and lack of political expression that exists in many of these countries.
Tavis: All right, so I confessed upfront, I love this book, 'Why Courage Matters.' Maya Angelou said to me one time, Senator McCain, "Tavis, I believe that courage is the greatest of all of the virtues, because without courage, you can't practice any of the other virtues." Is Dr. Angelou right, that courage is perhaps the greatest of all the virtues?
Sen. McCain: Yes. Winston Churchill said, "It's the first of all qualities, because without it, all the other qualities are not possible," and I agree with that. And it means not only Roy Benavides, who we write about in the book, who showed enormous, incredible courage in combat, but the people like John Lewis, who combined both moral and physical courage, because he stood up for social justice. In fact, he knelt near a bridge in Selma, Alabama, knowing that he was gonna get his head beat in. To people like Hannah Senesh, a young Israeli woman who parachuted into Yugoslavia and was killed by the Nazis in World War II. So, we've got to have courage, and the reason why I wrote the book was because of 9/11, because a lot of Americans were afraid. They were duct-taping their homes and, you know, wouldn't take an airliner. And we want to understand that courage is an essential, and fear isn't proof of cowardice, but it's an opportunity for courage.
Tavis: In a world that is so dangerous, though, how do people tap into courage these days? It seems like it's scarce.
Sen. McCain: You know, Tavis, we're born with the capacity to love, and if we love the virtues of justice and freedom, then we're capable of it. And I'd also point out 2 things: One, you don't have to be Roy Benavides or John Lewis. You can stand up to the bully. You can stand up to the boss who is unfair. You can stand up for the things that you believe in. And also, to have fear--as I mentioned before, there's nothing wrong with having fear. The question is, is use it as a catalyst to force you to do the right thing. And finally, most of the heroes that I write about have a cause greater than themselves. John Wesley Powell rafted the Colorado with one arm 'cause of his love of knowledge. Aung San Suu Kyi stayed in Burma rather than go back to be with her husband, who was dying, 'cause she knew she couldn't return in her love of independence and freedom. Each one of these heroes in our society loved something greater than themselves.
Tavis: Got about a minute to go here. Tell me, in your life, of all the people you've had a chance to get to know and to work with and to labor with, who you found to be the most courageous and why. I think I know the answer, but I don't want to prejudge it, though.
Sen. McCain: A man named Mike Christian, who I ended up in a prison cell with, who made an American flag by sewing with a bamboo needle, American flag on his shirt. They found his shirt. They beat him badly. He was tossed back into our room. He was sitting, last I saw--when I saw him, he was sitting under a dim light bulb, with his eyes almost shut from the beating that he had received, with his bamboo needle and a piece of white cloth and a piece of red cloth and another blue shirt, sewing the American flag. I'll never forget Mike.
Tavis: Can you tell me in 30 seconds why courage does matter?
Sen. McCain: It matters because we, especially as Americans, but all human beings have a higher calling, and that is to be of service, to love virtue, to love justice, to love freedom, and by showing courage in our everyday lives and in extraordinary times, as some of our Americans and some of our young Americans are doing right now, is really what life should be all about.
Tavis: The book is 'Why Courage Matters: The Way to a Braver Life.' I can't imagine anyone more qualified to write a book about why courage matters and about living a braver life than the Republican Senator from Arizona John McCain. Senator McCain, you're welcome here anytime, sir. Thanks for coming on.
Sen. McCain: Thank you, Tavis, and good luck.
Tavis: Thank you very much to you as well. Up next on this program--actor David Duchovny. You know this guy from 'The X-Files,' longtime running series, but he's gonna make a premiere here very shortly as a director and writer of a major motion picture for the first time. David Duchovny. Stay with us.
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