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• Sen. Kennedy's official site
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Tavis: As we commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Brown decision, I am delighted to welcome to this program Senator Edward Kennedy. The Massachusetts Democrat has been a tireless advocate on the issue of public education in this country. Recently he coauthored legislation along with Congressman John Lewis out of Georgia called the Fairness Act, which seeks to enforce civil rights protections for all. He joins us tonight from Washington. As always, senator, nice to see you.

Sen. Edward Kennedy: Glad to be on your program. And I was commending you just a few moments ago about that excellent program that was held in the National Theater yesterday, on Sunday, in honor of the Brown v. Board of Education, and it was a magnificent panel, wonderful lessons. It's a terrific--hopefully some of your viewing audience had an opportunity to see it, because it was just a great, great program, a very informative program, and you did a terrific job.

Tavis: I appreciate that. Thank you, senator. I thought that somebody should pull together some of the bright minds in this country, at least try to moderate a conversation to empower people around the 50th anniversary of this historic decision.

Let me ask you: President Bush, as you know, spoke earlier today in Topeka, Kansas, on the anniversary of Brown v. Board. With all due respect to the president, he didn't say anything that particularly made news--no big announcements, no major revelations. He gave a speech, but nothing particularly newsworthy. Had you been the president and you were in Topeka today speaking on the 50th anniversary of this historic decision, what would you have said about the unfinished agenda of Brown v. Board 50 years later?

Sen. Kennedy: Well, first of all, when you think of the Brown v. Board of Education, you think of a Magna Carta for black Americans and in many ways for all Americans: a pathway that the Brown vs. Board of Education opened up in terms of the Civil Rights movement in 1964, the Public Accommodations, the Nondiscrimination in Employment, and then the '65 act, the Voting Rights Act. I think the Brown vs. Board of Education was the decision that really set the stage. It was Dr. King obviously that was the spiritual leader of that whole movement, but the Brown vs. Board of Education opened that way.

But beyond that, the Brown vs. Board of Education was really the challenge and a declaration. It really said what this country was really about, and that is we aren't going to have “separate but equal” as a concept in as a part of the American dream. And as that concept applied to education, we have seen some progress, but really there is so much more that needs to be done.

In too many of the urban areas we have seen our state of schools in collapse. Too often we have teachers that do not have the kind of training that they need to have in order to be able to give the best in terms to the children. Too often the classrooms are overcrowded. Too often we don't have the kind of equipment in those classrooms which other children have in other parts of country. Too often we don't have a dropout prevention program to help identify the kind of challenges that children are facing and be able to help and a system to keep them in school. And then what we have is, if the children are able to get through that education system, it is so overwhelming to think that they can continue into the higher education because of the cost of tuition and the idea of bringing out and borrowing a good deal of money in order to continue the education. That really makes those dreams deferred for too many of the children in this country.

I think of education as being the linchpin. If you're able to get the quality education, if blacks and browns are able to get the quality education, then the economic opportunities open up for them and then the residential opportunities open up for them, and we really see the enormous transition in terms of this country. It starts with education. And for this president that signed No Child Left Behind, we know that 4.6 million children are being left behind today. We are failing them. We know that too many schools are being left behind because we're not investing in them. Part of the answer is obviously resources, money. Money doesn't solve all of the problems, but it's a pretty clear indication as to a nation's priorities. And today we are not investing in our children the way that this nation has to invest if we are going to really achieve the dream of that unanimous court in the Brown vs. Board of Education.

Tavis: As you so often do, you just brilliantly laid out what the problems are and in many respects what needs to be done to complete this unfinished agenda. Let me ask you though a very simple follow-up if I might. Why? That is to say, why have we not done it? You've been in the Senate for a lot of years fighting for these issues. Every president since your brother has said he wants to be the education president. We have the skill but not the will. Why have we not resolved these issues on the education front?

Sen. Kennedy: Well, you know, I thought we were going to with the No Child Left Behind. We had the commitment to have reform and resources. That was the basic commitment. And you don't need to read the bill, but if you read the bill with me sometime you'll see that the bill guaranteed that every child--every child--every child in this country--was going to be proficient within 12 years. This means children with limited English-speaking capabilities; it means children with disabilities--every child was gonna be a part of this. But when you only funded 2/3 of the rate, you're leaving out so many children.

You know, let me just continue for a moment. When we said that this nation was going to pass Social Security, we meant all of our people were gonna be part of the Social Security system. When we said we were gonna pass Medicare, it meant all of our seniors, not just 70% of them, not just 60%. We said all. When
President Kennedy said, “We're going to go to the moon,” he didn't just have enough money to get us up 200 miles. He said, “We're gonna get to the moon.”

That was the commitment that this president made and that all of us made when we signed that bill, No Child Left Behind. We were gonna do it for all children like we did it for Medicare, like we did it for Social Security, like we've tried to do with the Voting Rights Act. Like when President Kennedy said to go to the moon, we provided the resources to get to the moon. That was the same kind of a commitment. And we have seen the absolute abdication of that kind of commitment. That troubles me. And that is one of the strong reasons that I favor Senator Kerry, because I know he'll commit to that. He has committed to it, and we'll make sure that that commitment is realized.

Tavis: Next issue. I was gonna go to Senator Kerry. I want to get to Senator Kerry and your legislation with John Lewis. But since you mentioned John Kerry, your fellow senator from the state of Massachusetts, let me go there first. And then I'll come back to your legislation with John Lewis that I want to talk about as well, since we're talking about civil rights here.

John Kerry. The question, I guess, for you and that I've asked of others--and you know him better than most--again, he's the junior senator from your state. If John Kerry is, in fact, the man, with things as bad as they are for George W. Bush now, why is he not picking up in the polls? Tell me why I should believe he can win in November if he can't defeat this guy in the polls right now with things as bad as they are for George W. Bush.

Sen. Kennedy: Well, let me just say I think probably the polls show John narrowly ahead. But let me make this point: as we have seen historically, first of all, the people that are thinking about the elections know that they're still 4 months away. Quite frankly, if you look at where people finally made up their mind in the primaries, it was about 70% of them made up their mind in the last 5 or 6 days. 25% of them made up their mind in the ballot box. It's difficult to believe, but 25% made up their mind once they get into the ballot box, so historically, people…

You know, if you look back to 1960, people really didn't attach to President Kennedy until they had that first debate, when they saw President Kennedy and they saw the Vice President Nixon. Quite frankly, that was true about President Reagan and Jimmy Carter. When they focused in on President Reagan, they said, “Well, we think this person can handle the job.” Up to that time, there were real questions whether he could handle the job. People will be making up their mind on this. They'll be listening, as they should, in the course of the campaign.

Senator Kerry has a real responsibility to speak to the kind of issues that we've talked about: to an urban agenda, to an education agenda, to the health care issues, to jobs, to housing. All of those issues and about how to deal with crime and what we're doing with an overcrowded penal system, as well. He has to speak to those. He is speaking to them. But I've known John for 34 years now, and I know his heart. I know his soul. And I know, quite frankly, his commitment.

You know, people talk about, well, he's this way and that way. I remember very clearly when Jim Rassman was knocked over off his boat over in Vietnam, and when John Kerry, who was the skipper of that boat, saw that he had been knocked over, he turned that boat around, and even though he was wounded himself, he risked his life. He was the one that put the net over the front of the boat and pulled Jim Rassman out of the water. That isn't John Kerry talking, that's Jim Rassman telling the story. He didn't leave him Rassman behind. He's not gonna leave children behind, and he's not gonna leave the American people behind. So I believe in this. And I think when we finally see the chance to see these two individuals side by side, we're not only gonna have a president that's committed to the urban agenda, but also someone that'll get us out of Iraq with dignity and honor and bring those boys home.

Tavis: I don't want to leave this question of this legislation with John Lewis behind, either. My time's getting away. Got a couple minutes left. Right quick, tell me what this legislation is with John Lewis, the Fairness Act, and tell me what it means that in this country these many years later, 50 years after Brown v. Board, we still have to pass civil rights legislation to protect people in this country.

Sen. Kennedy: You know, when we found the Brown vs. Board of Education, a little over a year later, the Supreme Court made another ruling and said it had to be done with “all deliberate speed,” which is really a code word to slow the process down.

Tavis: Exactly.

Sen. Kennedy: That was slow. Then we passed the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and in what they call Title 6, if any institution received federal funds, if the impact of the federal funds actually worked to the disadvantage of minorities, they could bring a case. It was called the impact case. And if the result of this was discrimination, you could bring a case in law. But what happened in what they call the Sandoval case was the fact that unless you could demonstrate intent to discriminate, your remedy was going to be gone. And so therefore, for millions of blacks, minorities, and browns, they lost out in the courts, and being able to try and remedy some of the discrimination that's taken place against them. That is one of the examples that we will overturn, what they call the Sandoval case, in the Fairness Act.

But there are many other provisions as well in that law that can make an important difference in terms of advancing the civil rights agenda. But let me just end with this point here. America will never be America till we free ourselves from all forms of discrimination. That I believe in very deeply. President Kennedy believed in it. Robert Kennedy believed in it. I believe in it. I know John Kerry believes in it. And I think that is what's really the key kind of issue that's before us in these next 5 months of this election.

Tavis: Well, speaking of the election, we're gonna be in Boston covering the Democratic Convention. I hope to talk to you there, if not before then. You're always welcome on this program, senator. By the way, before I let you go, you tell your wife she's doing an awfully good job of dressing you for work every day.

Sen. Kennedy: I hope I'm as well-dressed in Boston. You'll let me know.

Tavis: All right, I'll see you then. Thank you, senator.

Sen. Kennedy: Thank you, Tavis.