E-mail a friendRobert Greenwald
airdate August 3, 2004
Award-winning independent filmmaker Robert Greenwald has executive produced and/or directed more than 50 TV, miniseries and feature films. He's drawn to issue-oriented projects and his films have tackled such subjects as human rights abuse, discrimination and teenagers in prison. His most recent project, Outfoxed; Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism, is the second-hottest documentary in the country. In his spare time, Greenwald serves on the board of various community organizations.
Robert Greenwald
Tavis: Robert Greenwald is an award-winning filmmaker whose films have earned 25 Emmy nominations. This summer, he's out with two critically acclaimed and controversial documentaries. The first is called 'Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism.' The film opens in select cities this Friday. It's also out on DVD. And then later this month, his film 'Uncovered: The War on Iraq,' hits theaters. This movie takes issue with the reasons the U.S. went to war. Here's a scene from 'Uncovered.'
George Bush: This year we gather in this chamber deeply aware of decisive days that lie ahead.
Interviewee: Distorted beliefs, estimates and guesstimates...and it appears that he was misleading the public and the Congress.
Bush: Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of Sarin, mustard, and VX nerve agent.
Second Interviewee: The Sarin that they were making in 1990, 1991 had a known shelf life of about two months.
Tavis: Robert Greenwald, nice to see you.
Robert Greenwald: Good to be here.
Tavis: Glad to have you. Somebody on the right really made you mad.
Greenwald: Well, you know, there's a lot of work to be done, because they control the media, so we have to use what we can, which is films and places like your show.
Tavis: Yeah. Why put two documentaries out in such close proximity to each other? Does that hurt ultimately?
Greenwald: Well, actually it's a freak of timing. I mean, I finished 'Uncovered,' and then it made its way through DVD and now this full version in the theaters, and 'Outfoxed' was a big rush. We wanted to get it in before the conventions so that there'd be a chance for people to focus on, frankly, how Fox distorts the news, how they're unfair and they're unbalanced. And we got that out on DVDs immediately, and now suddenly it's in the movie theaters because there's been this tremendous demand and interest in it.
Tavis: Everybody talks about Fox, and according to the ratings, everybody watches Fox, so I think you and I both know rather well that there are always conversations in America about how 'conservative' this network really is. Tell me how you went about the process of actually documenting on film what so many people have to say about what they watch on Fox News Channel every day.
Greenwald: Well, let me say a couple of things. First of all, not that many people watch it. In fact, it's under 2 million people. It's not insignificant.
Tavis: In the scheme of things, yes.
Greenwald: And also, the thing that I discovered in the six months of research and watching Fox News, it's not just that it's conservative. It's Republican. There are a lot of conservatives who I disagree with, but they have principled positions about the deficit, about a prudent foreign policy, about civil liberties. You don't get that on Fox. All you get over and over again is the Bush party Republican line, which is different than a Republican philosophy. The way we were able to prove it is four ways--clips from Fox News, which I had people all over the country watching.
Tavis: They didn't give--Fox didn't give those to you.
Greenwald: No. Ha ha.
Tavis: OK.
Greenwald: No, they did not offer them--
Tavis: I'm sure they didn't.
Greenwald: But fortunately we have something called fair usage in this country, so we're able to do that. Through terrific folks who work at Fox News, I got those daily memos. They send memos every day to their reporters, editors and journalists saying how to talk about the news. I mean, a news station?
Then we also commissioned a study which tracked the guests on the shows, Republican versus Democrat, and on 'The Brit Hume Show' over 25 weeks, 80% Republican, 20% Democrat. I mean, that's pretty significant evidence when you put it all together.
Tavis: When you say memos, these memos you're referring to that they get every day at Fox News Channel about how to cover the news, you're talking specifically here about phraseology, about words, about usage, about spin, that they're told to employ every day?
Greenwald: Exactly. I mean, essentially, it's political guidance. Now Roger Ailes, who runs Fox News, was a political operative--a very good one.
Tavis: One of the best, in fact.
Greenwald: Yes, exactly. He's doing the same job, only they call it a news station. And by the way, I wouldn't object if they said, 'We are the Republican Party news station.' That's fine. I listen to Pacifica. I listen to Air America. They don't pretend what they're not, but this nonsense to say 'fair and balanced' is really a distortion.
And you know, in a democracy, the information we get is actually really important as to how people make their decisions, and when that's distorted the way Fox News distorts it--and these memos are guidance. You know, if you got a memo every day: 'Here's how we want you to talk about the news. Here's the words we want you to use. Here's what we want you to focus on.'
Tavis: Give me an example of a memo.
Greenwald: One of the ones--
Tavis: A word choice they were told to use.
Greenwald: They were saying-- Oh, one of the most horrible ones was about in Iraq saying we should not be bemoaning casualties over there. I mean, these are soldiers who are giving their lives, and they should not be bemoaning it because their position is everything about the war is good. There were memos indicating how they should focus on the good things in Iraq, not the bad things. We have a whole section of the movie called 'Happy Iraq.' Not to in any way diminish that horrible tragedy, but to show what Fox News was doing, which was all good news there--for months and months.
Tavis: Why not come out then and just be who you are, admit who you are? I decided a long time ago in this business of television and radio that if I were gonna succeed, I was gonna succeed by embracing who I am and not trying to transcend who I am. I came after 5 years of being on a network called BET--Black Entertainment Television. No matter what you think of it, they put out there that they were 'black entertainment television.' Why doesn't Fox News Channel, if they are the Republican News Channel, come out and say that? It wouldn't hurt their ratings. I mean, they are who they are. People are gonna watch. They're gonna have the audience. Why not come out and say that? Why do this 'fair and balanced' thing?
Greenwald: Well, I think two things. Number one, I, on your program, say that if they will do it, I will hold hands with Roger Ailes and kiss him on the cheek when he makes that announcement at the press conference. We'll give them our movie 'Outfoxed' to show for free. The reason I think they don't do it is because of sponsors. Sponsors don't want to be taking sides, and--
Tavis: Sponsors aren't stupid. Sponsors watch Fox News Channel just like I watch Fox News Channel.
Greenwald: I know, but as long as they're saying 'fair and balanced'--
Tavis: That makes--that makes it good?
Greenwald: Well, they can hide behind it and say it's a news channel--
Tavis: I'm just asking.
Greenwald: But if they were to say, 'We're the Republican Party channel,' then you can go to them and say, 'OK, you've put X-million dollars into Fox News. Now put X-million dollars into the Democratic Party or into something equivalent,' which is not the case right now ‘cause they're all saying, 'Well, we're just a news channel,' which is nonsense.
Tavis: All right. 'Uncovered,' the other documentary that's out now, really talks about the war in Iraq. What did you find most startling? I mean, I can't imagine that it gets any worse than what we've already heard, but every day, we're being bombarded--not bombarded--but we're hearing more and more detail, I should say, about what the president knew and when he knew it and what he really didn't know and what he told us he knew that wasn't accurate, but what have you found out in this documentary that's most startling for you personally?
Greenwald: What was most startling was the cumulative effect. What I did in 'Uncovered,' I interviewed over 20 people who between them had worked for the government 420 years. I mean, the real patriots, by the way, not people who are gonna get a book deal or a contract to run for office, but people who'd been in the middle levels, who made government tick, and they were all experts in different areas, from weapons inspectors to people at the CIA who'd put 20-25 years in. And to a man and woman, they said we were not being told the truth. And what was most startling, some of them were in favor of the war when it started. Some of them were Republicans. Some of them were Independents, but they could not abide the fact that information was being distorted. In the CIA, information is treated purely, and when you start messing with it, that's like a violation of everything that many of these people believed in.
Tavis: One could argue, respectfully, that your work is not treated purely. And by that I mean you clearly have an agenda. As I started this conversation earlier by suggesting somebody made you mad on the right. You put two documentaries out at the same time. You clearly have an agenda. You have a point of view. You have an ideology. One could argue that your stuff is so ideologically left that you really aren't gonna empower anybody with information because anybody to the right of center, or even in the middle, sees your agenda. Like 'You know, this guy's got an agenda. I can't learn anything from this. I can't believe this guy. He's got an agenda.'
Greenwald: Well, I think it's true about me, but remember, these are films. 'Uncovered'--you can say whatever you like about me. These are 20 patriotic Americans who have worked for hundreds of years for our government. It's not me talking. It's a guy who briefed Bush Sr. for years, giving him the morning briefings. It's people who have this incredible expertise. It's a weapons inspector. It's a guy who almost lost his life trying to take Saddam Hussein out. So you can say what you want about me, and the reason I did 'Uncovered' that way was precisely for that reason, and I presented it neutrally. Here are experts. And again, some of them were in favor of the war, but the distortion of the information is objective and true, and similarly with Fox, I use their own words. I didn't put my words in their mouths. Their words, their clips from their shows.
Tavis: I opened this show by referencing Michael Moore's very successful, $100-million successful, 'Fahrenheit 9/11.' Talk to me very quickly about how you think the documentary is metamorphosing as we see it in terms of really having an impact on politics as we know it in America.
Greenwald: Well, I think we're in an incredible time where politics affects all of us. It's not abstract anymore. It's life and death, it's education, it's healthcare. And with politics so on people's mind, film is a wonderful way to reach people. It's interesting, it's emotional, it can be entertaining, it can upset you, it can get you very angry, but I think it's something that gets to your heart and soul, and that's what I love about film, love about Michael's movies, and hopefully mine will contribute to that.
Tavis: Let me ask you in 30 seconds whether or not you think, speaking of contributing, that movies like yours and Mr. Moore's are going to have an impact on this election just a few months away now?
Greenwald: Well, you never know specifically. I think that something--you know, things in the culture have an overall effect. Neither of my films say vote for this one or that one, but if you see a film about the Bush administration not telling you the truth, you make the decision about whether you want to vote for that guy or not.
Tavis: Robert Greenwald's a busy guy. First 'Unprecedented,' then 'Outfoxed,' now 'Uncovered.' I'm out of time, but anyway, Mr. Greenwald, nice to see you.
Greenwald: Thank you.
Tavis: You're welcome back here anytime. Up next on this program, now we've talked to Mr. Greenwald about his wonderful documentaries, the compelling story of Amadou Diallo. You recall Amadou Diallo, shot at 41 times by four cops in New York City. We'll talk to his mother and hear her story, Kadiatou Diallo, and the filmmaker of this film, Kelly Anderson. We'll do that in just a second. Stay with us.
On August 17th, the 'P.O.V.' documentary series seen here on PBS continues with a film about police brutality. This documentary includes the story of Amadou Diallo. Back in 1999, Mr. Diallo, a West African immigrant living in New York City, was killed by police who fired 41 shots at him. This case and two others are the basis of the film 'Every Mother's Son.' Here's a scene now from 'Every Mother's Son.'
Kadiatou Diallo: I learned that my son was killed in the vestibule of his apartment by 4 police officers, and that they shot at him 41 times.
Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Why?! Amadou! Amadou! Amadou! Amadou! Amadou!
Tavis: I'm pleased to welcome to the program the co-director and producer of 'Every Mother's Son,' Kelly Anderson, who joins us tonight from New York, along with Amadou Diallo's mother, Kadiatou Diallo. Nice to have you both on the program.
Kelly Anderson: Thank you, nice to be here.
Diallo: Thank you for having us.
Tavis: It's my pleasure to have you. Mrs. Diallo, let me start with you. I cannot believe it's been five years since Amadou's death. Does it seem like five years for you?
Diallo: Well, um, my lifetime now has been so long, and so near and so far at the same time dealing with this situation. When you lose a loved one, you live with it for the rest of your life. I have been through the system, and learned step by step about the criminal justice system, about my son's death, what caused his death, and I want to dedicate my life to prevent this from happening again. This is why I join with these two mothers, who we shared the common grief and the same experience to do this piece so the world will know more about this issue, and possibly make something about this.
Tavis: I hear the point you make about the fact that one never closes on a loved one. You kind of close on a house, but you never close on the death of a loved one. I hear you and I understand that. Let me ask you, though, to your point about what you have learned having to deal with our system of jurisprudence, our criminal justice system, what's the most disappointing thing you've had to endure dealing with the system, aside, of course, from the fact that your son was shot at 41 times by cops in New York City?
Diallo: As I said, I have learned a lot. And I was really hopeful at the beginning that those four officers who killed Amadou will in fact be at least held accountable for the action that took my son's life. But at the end, we were not only let down in New York City, the trial had been moved to Albany in rural upstate New York. And then they acquitted the four officers who killed my son and after that, even the NYPD internal investigation decided not to bring any punishment to the officers. And we went to the federal department and asked for the government to look into it so that we will try to get a civil rights violation charges against the four officers for killing Amadou and violating his right. Well, we were let down, step by step.
I have learned so much in the country because I travel around the country to speak about this issue to raise awareness on the issue, and I have been listening to young, black men and Latinos and minority people telling me about their frustration. In fact, this is a very difficult situation on the criminal justice system. I never had any experience prior to my son's death, but now I can tell you I have learned a lot.
Tavis: Let me ask you, you made the point earlier as did I, that this film, this documentary really focuses on the lives of three mothers who've all lost their sons to violence or police brutality. When you and these two other mothers got together or get together, what do you talk about? Is the experience therapeutic for the three of you to be together?
Diallo: Well, we never planned to do that, but we connected right away, especially with Iris Baez. She came to the National Action Network the first time I went to the rally vigil, and she came and really lent her support to me. We shared, most importantly, what we share in common is our faith and how we are dealing with our grief and wanting to do a change, not to let our sons died in vain. I think this is--the connections was right away, but I must tell you that three of us have different faiths, but what united us was the thing that we shared for the love of our children and the frustration that we all went through. Doris Boskey is the same. I think her son was killed last. The first was Mrs. Baez who lost her child and me and Doris Boskey, but we all connected right away, and we have been talking on the phone. When someone is down, one of us is down, we speak to each other on the phone and we meet from time to time. I think this is a healing process for us.
Tavis: I hope so. Kelly, let me ask you, beyond the obvious, which is that these are three cases of police brutality, as a filmmaker, how do you weave these three very different stories together? As Ms. Diallo says, they all have different faiths, different beliefs, different backgrounds, different cultures. How do you weave a sad story like this together to make sense for the viewer? Kelly
Anderson: Well, these three women have very powerful stories, and so they're really the backbone of the show, and the fact that they were able to come together even though they're so different from one another and engage in this struggle made it a very compelling story. I would say that each one of the three stories represents a different aspect of the problem. It was very important for us not to just focus on the sentimentality of the topic, but instead to really tease out what are the problems with policing and with the criminal justice system when it deals with trying to prosecute police officers.
Tavis: Let me jump in right quick and ask you whether you believe there is 'sentimentality' around the issue of police brutality. You believe that?
Anderson: No. I mean, I think it's a very sad issue, but I think it's very important to not just give people a reason to be depressed because, believe me, these are depressing stories. These women were not able to get justice through the justice system and they've been fighting, you know, you mentioned how long it's been. It feels longer because they've never, ever in a court of law had somebody say something was done that was wrong.
Tavis: So for the three women in your story and for the countless other mothers around the country who have had to deal with this, and God forbid, those who down the road might have to deal with it, where's the hope? Where's the reason to believe that they will find some modicum of justice?
Anderson: Well, I think that public consciousness around this issue is growing. I mean, there was a moment when we first started making the film in 1999, when there was a real movement of family members who had been impacted by police violence and they were coming together nationally around the country. What happened on 9/11 unfortunately took some of the wind and the steam out of that movement, but the problem is still there. I mean, 44 people have been killed in New York City alone by police officers or by law enforcement since Mayor Bloomberg came into office and one of those officers was indicted. So there's still a big problem and things have not gotten better.
Tavis: And yet, Kelly, as significant a number as 44 is, I think most Americans still see this tragic, sad, depressing though it might be, as somebody else's issue. Nobody ever expects their loved one to be the victim of police brutality, and by and large, we still think that police are law-abiding persons who protect and serve. And for the most part, they are. But how do you get folk to feel a story like this when they think it's usually somebody else's? 'That's Ms. Diallo's story, Ms. Baez's story, not my story.'
Anderson: Well, it's very important for us to make a film that would reach out. This is going to be on public television across the country on August 17th. It's really important for us that people who don't live in poor, urban areas understand what happens to people at the hands of the police on a daily basis: that it's very normal for people in many parts of this country to be stopped, questioned, frisked, for no reason at all on the streets of many communities in New York City and across the country. So to me, it was very important. I mean, I don't come from a neighborhood where that happens, and it was very important for me that other people be able to see that, you know, we all have a stake in making sure that policing is effective and fair. And I think a lot of people feel that there's a trade-off. You know, to be safe, there has to be accidents like this, like what happened to Amadou. I think it's a false equation.
Tavis: But to your point, though, that you don't come from a community that, too often, almost never has to deal with something like this. Your community is that same community, respectfully, where most of the movers and shakers in this country live and work and play, so how do we get their attention?
Diallo: Tavis, let me jump into this. I want them to relate to that story. Our children have been killed. They should look at them as their own children so that they can relate to this story. This story is going to be on PBS. Let them watch it and hear the three mothers speaking of their loss and their grief and their hope. Hopefully, that will raise more awareness and it will help stimulate the issue to be discussed around the kitchen table and influence the public to know that we need strong laws to protect the people equally, not only the rich area, and live in the poor--many people, when something happen, they say, 'Oh, unfortunately, but the police is doing good job.' We understand the police is doing good job, but there is no excuse for our children to be killed like that.
Tavis: Let me give you the last word, Ms. Diallo. I hear the advice you've offered to the American public, certainly those movers and shakers who watch PBS, but let me ask you finally very quickly, what do you say to mothers who are grieving? Mothers who have endured this process, still trying to find justice, may never find it? As you talk to mothers around the country, what do you say to them specifically?
Diallo: I personally have even recently talked to Mrs. Clairborne about her son who was killed at the rooftop in Brooklyn. When I got into her house I decided to go in private and just to hold her and hug her and pray with her. We went into the bedroom of her son's, you know, her late son's bedroom, and I saw his belongings. I told her the road is hard, it's very painful. Sometimes you will feel down, but sometimes you need strength and prayers. It's OK to cry, but it's OK to understand that if you get up, it's good for you. Then you will look back and say, 'I did something.' It is very hard, but the road is very long and it's very lonely. I told them that if they need me, I'm here. And Mrs. Baez did that, also, Doris Boskey. We all speak to families who are victims, but we do not want to be a victim. We want to be the people who will be involved. As I said in the piece that is going to be on television, we want to be part of the solution, and we want to continue to go on and bring changes.
Tavis: Ms. Diallo and Kelly Anderson, thank you both for your courage and your conviction and your commitment. Thanks for this project. The project again is called 'Every Mother's Son.' It premieres August 17th on 'P.O.V.' August 17th, my mother's birthday, in fact, on PBS. Check it out. Nice to see you both and all the best to you.
Anderson and Diallo: Thank you, Tavis.
Tavis: My pleasure. That's our show for tonight. As always, you can catch me on the radio on NPR. I'll see you back here next time on PBS. Until then, thanks for watching. Good night from Los Angeles. And as always, keep the faith.
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