MONDAY
E-mail a friendDr. Cornel West
airdate September 7, 2004
A renowned scholar, Princeton professor Dr. Cornel West has written/edited more than 20 books, including Race Matters and Hope on a Tightrope. Outside of academia, he's been described as an "intellectual provocateur," with lectures, TV and film appearances and his spoken-word CDs. He provides philosophical commentary on all three Matrix films, and his disc, "Never Forget: A Journey of Revelations," combines hip-hop and intellectual dialogue. West has also taught at Harvard, Yale and Union Theological Seminary.
Dr. Cornel West
Tavis: It is always a pleasure to welcome back to this program the esteemed Dr. Cornel West. The accomplished author and Princeton professor is out with his latest book. We've been waiting on this one. 'Democracy Matters: Winning the Fight Against Imperialism.' Also this fall, look for his new 2-disc spoken-word CD called 'Street Knowledge.' He joins us tonight from New York City. Dr. West, nice to have you on again, sir.
Cornel West: Always a blessing to talk with you, my brother.
Tavis: Always glad to have you on the program. Now, you got a new CD coming out. Didn't Larry Summers run you out of Harvard for making CDs? You ain't stopped yet?
West: He actually made it more challenging and inspired me to do it. That's why I put out a double one rather than just a single one, my brother. Yeah, with Cliff West, Derrick 'D.O.A.' Allen, Mike Daily, we throwing down, my brother.
Tavis: Before I get to the book, tell me what the value is and why an esteemed professor like yourself would put out a spoken-word CD. Why do a project like that, other than the fact that obviously you can do it?
West: I come out of a legacy of Ralph Waldo Emerson, Martin Luther King, Jr., Ella Baker. We all have a passion to communicate in whatever idiom we can to highlight a deep democratic ideal, and so I'm putting forth a danceable education, especially for the younger generation, as well as this text. And, of course, I've published many other texts for other contexts and other constituents.
Tavis: In this book 'Democracy Matters,' and I said we've been waiting on this because 10 years ago you had the New York Times bestselling 'Race Matters' that everybody seemed to read. For 10 years we've been waiting on the follow-up. Now it's out: 'Democracy Matters.' In this book, you called for a 'democratic awakening'--your phrase, not mine. A 'democratic awakening.' Is that with a big 'd' or a small 'd'?
West: A small 'd', but big punch. What 'Race Matters' was about was the way in which the vicious legacy of white supremacy contributes to the arrested development of democracy. Now the nation, after 9/11, has the blues, and the question becomes what can a blues nation learn from a blues people? What can America learn from a people who have been enslaved, Jim Crowed, wrestling with terrorism for over 300 and some years, but still holding on to deep democratic ideals be it in jazz or blues or be it James Baldwin or be it Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Tavis: So what can a blues nation learn from a blues people?
West: Well, the first thing is that we have to be critical of certain dogmas that most Americans still don't want to interrogate and question: The dogma of free market fundamentalism that results in escalating levels of wealth inequality. The dogma of aggressive militarism, thinking, in fact, that now that we are the superpower, the empire, the colossus, that somehow we can solve problems by military force.
And third, but not least, the dogma of escalating authoritarianism from the USA Patriot Act that imposes severe limits, even surveillance on conversation, to in fact the kinds of difficulties of having a robust discussion about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. You know about brother Tariq Ramadan at the University of Notre Dame denied a visa by the U.S. government only because he wants to be part of a critical discussion about one of the most crucial and delicate and difficult issues facing anybody around the world, the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Can we have a robust debate without falling into traps of anti-Arab bigotry and anti-Semitic bigotry?
Those are the kinds of things that we learn from the best of the black freedom movement because the black freedom movement has been Socratic, willing to interrogate dogmas of white supremacy, for example, and engaging prophetic witness, which is to say highlight compassion and justice, not just charity and privatistic orientations. And last, but not least, tragic hope. This is not a time to be optimistic, it's a time to be hopeful. This is a dark time. It's a moment of a deep division, deep polarization, but don't fall prey to despair. Don't fall prey to cynicism and apathy. Shatter the forces of conformity, shatter the forces of complacency, be non-conformist, hold your head up high, and fight, fight, fight with dignity without demonizing your enemy.
Tavis: All right, so give me reason to believe. Give me reason to hope.
West: One reason is, is that we've just had the largest, massive protest resulting in arrests in the history of New York City. Fellow citizens who are righteously--who express righteous indignation at Bush's policies and they did it peacefully for the most part. That means that there's still a hunger and a thirst among American citizenry for some kind of counterbalance against the powers that be. That's a sign of hope in a very important way and, of course, we see it around the world in terms of the critique of the corporate globalization agenda.
Tavis: Let me go back and have--to use your phrase, a robust, albeit an abbreviated robust debate or conversation about the four themes that really--the four pillars of this book 'Democracy Matters.' Back to your earlier point, number one: free market fundamentalism. Why is that such a danger?
West: It's a danger because it views working people as simply appendages to the economy, as if they are simply commodities to be bought and sold as opposed to human beings precious in the eyes of God, law, and so forth. It means what? The decline of real wages, the redistribution of wealth taking place from poor and working people to the well-to-do. Not simply in tax cuts but in the kind of corporate welfare that Ralph Nader talks about with such insight, and he's absolutely right, and of course I'm gonna pray for Ralph but not vote for him this time. I'm gonna vote for Kerry, but Kerry has problems. He's too milquetoast. He hasn't found his language, he hasn't found his voice, and I hope he does, and many of us will help him do that, but the issue of free market fundamentalism has everything to do with fairness and justice at the workplace.
Tavis: Aggressive militarism.
West: The fact that now that we are a superpower we think that we can go it alone as opposed to affirming multilateral institutions like the U.N. and other such institutions and have alliances, principled alliances with other nations and recognize that even though the United States is a sole superpower, that all superpowers are prey to hubris, arrogance, condescension, and in the end they are doomed if they don't reach out.
Tavis: Escalating authoritarianism.
West: Well, this is a scary thing because, of course, America has a history of being authoritarian, especially in times of war. We saw that with the Germans in World War I. We saw it with the Japanese in World War II. And we saw it with McCarthyism in the 1950s and the Cold War. And now that America's preoccupied with various kinds of gangsterism and terrorism coming from a particular slice of Islam, for the most part it becomes difficult to have a conversation that is critical of both America and others, be they Muslims, Jews, Christians, secular, and so forth. And so the authoritarianism in some ways is the most frightening because it means then that we can't even talk to one another. And when I look, I must say, at the intellectual landscape of the nation, one cannot but be disheartened at the moment because everyone is locked within their own little pouches, within their own little boxes, as my brother Clifton talks about, and we've got to learn how to think out of the box and across the box.
Tavis: Let me ask you about this title. 'Democracy Matters.' It's clearly, for me at least as a reader of your work, a double entendre and perhaps a quadruple entendre. I can think of four or five different ways to take this title 'Democracy Matters.' But when you speak of 'Democracy Matters,' tell me what most concerns you about how our democracy is slipping away.
I think of our friend Judge Damon Keith in Detroit, who in a ruling a year or so ago used this phrase that I love so much. 'Democracies die behind closed doors.' Democracies die behind closed doors. In a very real way there are folk who have legitimate concerns about our civil rights, about our constitutional rights, et cetera, et cetera, that are being eroded, and that is a danger toward the end of democracy as we know it.
West: Absolutely. I mean, democracies are predicated on, first, a rule of fair law so that persons have a trust in the law being fair and just. And with corruption now so normal--both in our political system and in our economic system--spilling over into the law, persons lose trust in the law. And of course black people have had very little reason to have trust in the law until recently, and so we have a distinctive view about this thing. Similarly so in terms of the trust between the citizens and their leaders and their elected officials. But the elected officials are locked into such a deeply corrupt system, with corporate interests, lobbyists disproportionately influencing not just the bills and policies but the very framework in which we talk about our attempt to put forward bills and policies.
So, that's the frightening side, but the positive side is--and this is very important, 'cause this is not a moment in which we just ran against the Bush administration. That's too easy. There's wind at our back, though, brother Tavis. America has had moments in which we almost lost the American democratic experiment. It's a very precious experiment. 1860, Civil War; 1890s, depression; 1930s, depression; 1960s, wrestling with white supremacy and American apartheid. And there is a deep democratic tradition in the country that has produced and unleashed citizens who are willing to speak freely, fearlessly, boldly, and self-critically about the crisis, and we're seeing more and more, especially young people. Those prophetic hip-hoppers, not the Constantinian ones; prophetic Christians, not the Constantinian ones; and others who are willing to speak coming together. And in that sense we have signs of hope. Though, as I said, we have no reason to be excessively optimistic.
Tavis: I got about 20 seconds here. Earlier today on our radio program--I was fascinated by this--you suggested--let me back up. Bill Clinton suggested over the weekend that Kerry should stick with domestic agendas. Your advice on the radio show today to John Kerry was to listen to jazz. In 20 seconds, tell me how that's gonna help John Kerry.
West: One of the greatest contributions of black people to democracy is blues and jazz because it means that ordinary people take power back. And they take power back by finding their voice; and when you find your voice, you are empowered; and when you are empowered, it becomes contagious and connects to other people as they attempt to find their voice and become empowered. Kerry needs to find his voice, and we hope he has a voice. I hope he does. He certainly had one in 1971 with tremendous power. Will he find his voice now? So he needs to listen to a little John Coltrane and Leroy Clark.
Tavis: The new book: Cornel West, 'Democracy Matters.' The new CD: Cornel West, 'Street Knowledge.' As always, Dr. West, nice to have you on.
West: Stay strong, my brother.
Tavis: Up next, actress Neve Campbell. Stay with us.
Back to September 7, 2004