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Tavis: Joe Lockhart is a veteran Democratic advisor who served as White House press secretary under President Bill Clinton. He's now a senior advisor for the Kerry campaign and joins us from Kerry campaign headquarters in Washington. Joe, nice to have you on the program.

Lockhart: Good to see you again, Tavis.

Tavis: Nice to see you, my friend. So many things to talk about. Let's start with these poll numbers. No matter which poll you look at it seems to be, at the moment at least, irrefutable: Mr. Kerry's behind practically in every poll. What do you make of it?

Lockhart: Well, you know, there's a bunch of polls. They're sort of split in two. There's polls that say it's neck and neck, 1, 2, maybe 2 points and a couple outliers showing it's 7, 8 or 9. I think the more important polls are the ones in the battleground states--the ones that are actually gonna decide this-- and we're doing much better there. We think this is a race that's, if not neck- and-neck, within the margin of error. We're in a pretty good spot. I think today's speech is really gonna launch us on a really important week to talk about the national security of this country and what Bush has done to weaken us. So, we think we'll go into that first debate at the end of the month in a very strong position.

Tavis: There are a number of things you just said I want to get to about those debates among other things. Let me stay for a moment though with the notion of this new campaign theme if you will. The new theme coming out of the Kerry campaign seems to be that this election is about a very simple question. Do you want 4 more years of bad decisions, 4 more years of a wrong direction, or do you want a new direction? Now, it sounds OK to me. Still sounds a bit amorphous, number one and, number two, did it really take you guys 2 years to figure this out?

Lockhart: Well, I'll tell you, it doesn't matter when--

Tavis: I know you just got there.

Lockhart: It doesn't matter when you get there, Tavis, it's just that you get there.

Tavis: OK.

Lockhart: So, listen, I think you're right. You know, as you look at both the domestic and foreign policy record of this administration, it's really been one of mismanagement--of siding with the wrong people, making the wrong decisions-- and there's nothing more clear on that front than the performance of the economy. So, we're gonna talk about that. We've got millions of jobs lost, health care costs are still out of control, and then you've have the issue of Iraq and foreign policy, the war on terror. There's just no clearer example of how this president, one, can't seem to get it right. At every point he makes the wrong decision. And, two, he just can't seem level with us. I mean, there's no candor at all in what the situation is, and we think that's gonna be a powerful issue as we move forward into that first debate.

Tavis: Somebody on this program last week--I'm trying to think who it was--but it was a Democratic--I know who it was now. Bill Press--MSNBC commentator. Bill suggested last week--he's not the first person who offered to suggest this. I was a bit take aback when I heard Mr. Kerry suggest it myself. Talking now about Kerry's comments earlier, weeks ago, when he suggested that he would've done the same thing in Iraq that Mr. Bush did in terms of going to Iraq with the information that Mr. Bush had. In retrospect, was that not the biggest mistake, the biggest faux pas, that Mr. Kerry has made in this campaign, to actually say that?

Lockhart: Well, listen, this is the problem with this debate. The White House likes to take words out of John Kerry, John Edwards, and Democrats' mouths and twist them up 'cause they're afraid of the record. The question when John Kerry was at the Grand Canyon was simple, which was, 'Given what you know now, would you still vote to authorize the president to take military action?' And the bottom line is, since we didn't know, without getting the inspectors in, if they'd completely disarmed, you have to give the president the authority because that was a step to strengthen his hand to try to go in, get the inspectors, let them do their work, and frankly, they would've found no weapons of mass destruction.

But the bottom line is, the real issue here is, how did the president use the authority? He said he'd build a coalition. He said he'd let the inspectors do their work. He didn't fulfill either of those. He recklessly rushed to war, and now we're paying the consequences. So there's no inconsistency here. These are-- I mean, George Bush would like you to believe that everything is simple: black and white, good versus evil. The world is a complicated place. We need a president who can handle complicated issues.

Tavis: Let me ask you what Mr. Kerry's exit strategy for Iraq would be, or is.

Lockhart: Sure. I mean, I think that's pretty straightforward. We need to internationalize this conflict. We right now are taking 90% of the fighting burden, 90% of the casualties and debts are American, and we're paying more than 90% of the costs.

We need to have a president who has some credibility around the world, who can sit down with the European leaders, the leaders in Asia, and say, 'It's time for you to help.' They won't do that for this president. They're tired of being bullied and misled. They'll do it for a new president. Once we've got an international group on the ground and we can stabilize the country, we can begin bringing our troops home, and I think John Kerry's plan, or goal, to get the troops out within 4 years is doable if we have a president that has credibility.

Tavis: Let me ask you to be honest with me on this--

Lockhart: I'm always honest.

Tavis: I know you're always honest. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. But let me ask you...

Lockhart: Extra honest.

Tavis: Extra honest. There we go. Let's go a little deeper here. Tell me how concerned you were, when you joined this campaign, that here's a guy who you're now working for, who served and served honorably, being beaten down by 2 guys who didn't show up and questions about what one did when he did show up--if he stayed and fulfilled his duty... Here this guy is on the defensive--your guy John Kerry on the defensive--with a record of service. These guys didn't show up, and they're beating your guy down. How did you feel about that?

Lockhart: Well, I'll tell you. You know, often you fall into the trap in campaigns thinking that if the facts are on your side, you're OK. And I think there was a sense because John Kerry had a heroic military record, served with great courage and valor, that none of this stuff would matter. And, you know, you have to remember that politics is a contact sport, and sometimes the facts don't matter. And if you get attacked, you have to respond.

Listen, I think when John Kerry went and spoke to the firefighters, which was well before I got here, he turned that issue on its head and made it a problem for the Republicans and not so much for him. But sure, there was--they inflicted some pain in the course of the month of August. The bottom line here is that this campaign is about showcasing John Kerry as the fighter that he is, taking it to the president. He's been doing that since Labor Day. He's gonna do it from now till Election Day, and I think we're already seeing the results. There was a--you know, there were polls showing Kerry losing by 11, 12, 13 points. Most of the polls now are back down within the margin of error, and all the trends are moving in our direction.

Tavis: When you said a few minutes ago, and I didn't challenge you on this because I knew exactly what you meant, but I'm gonna challenge you on it respectfully now. A few minutes ago you suggested to me, when I asked you about the new campaign theme, it doesn't matter when you get there as long as you get there. Of course, it does matter when you get there, because if you get there November 3rd, then you're a day late and a dollar short.

Everywhere I go, though, Joe--and I'm not telling you something you don't already know, so level with me here--everywhere I go folk who want Kerry to win, who really want this guy to win, are worried that he's not going to pull this thing out. That this wonderful opportunity to unseat Mr. Bush, as they see it, has been squandered, and that every day that these polls keep suggesting that he's behind, they get more and more worried. At some point, don't you get to a place where even your supporters throw their hands up and they say this thing is over with and you guys run like the devil for the last 3 weeks, but you got no energy around the country.

Lockhart: Well, I tell you, I guess at some point you get there, but we're not there, and that's as candid as I can be. If you look at this race, it has not changed structurally much since the late spring, the early summer.

There's really two things going on here. One is this public doesn't want to reelect this president. He has failed them both domestically and around the world, and they're frankly tired of him and they want to make a change. John Kerry has to make the case to the public that he has what it takes to be president. We are making that case. I think we are right on schedule. We will go into the first debate in a dead heat, I'm absolutely certain of that, and then he'll win the first debate, and October will be about, you know, looking at George Bush in the rear-view mirror.

Tavis: Talk to me about these debates. You and I both recall 4 years ago they said that Al Gore was a better debater. And because of his style, he got his clock cleaned by George W. Bush, not because of his brilliance, again, but because of Mr. Gore's style. Senator Kerry--I think I heard Mario Cuomo, former governor of New York suggest the other day that John Kerry is a good speaker, but he's got to learn to stop speaking in sentences that have 3 commas in them. So tell me what this guy has to do in these debates to actually win where Gore did not 4 years ago against this same George W. Bush.

Lockhart: I think it's very simple. He's got to speak clearly, and he's got to make George Bush responsible for his record. If we can do that, we'll win the debate, we'll win the election.

I love the game that the Bush people play. I would challenge anyone to name me a debate that he's lost. He's won every debate he's ever been in, but yet they go into every debate wringing their hands saying we're not sure he can even make it through. He's not up to this. He's not smart enough. He's plenty smart enough. He's a good debater. He's got one big problem, though. He's got a record of 4 years of miserable failure, and he's going to have to defend it, and I think John Kerry will be able to go and aggressively prosecute that case, and we'll see what happens. But Bush is a good debater, but I think he'll be defeated.

Tavis: Are there going to be 3 debates here, officially?

Lockhart: I expect so.

Tavis: John Kerry has a track record in every race he's ever been in of coming from behind and finishing strong. Winning, in fact. Can he do that in a presidential race? Is that possible?

Lockhart: Oh, absolutely. Listen, I think if you looked at the race in 2000, if it had gone on another 3 or 4 hours, or if they'd counted all the votes in Florida, we'd have a different result. I think you're right. I think Kerry is always at his best when he's behind and he's fighting.

You know, I think we'd love for the momentum trend to start right now so we don't have nervous days at the end, but this is going to be close. And I think you'll see the very best of John Kerry as we get closer to Election Day. And I think if you look at the president, he hasn't been a particularly good closer. He sort of limped over the line last time, limped over the nomination line in 2000, so I think this sets up well for us.

Tavis: In 10 seconds, how's President Clinton doing?

Lockhart: He's doing well. I talked to Vernon Jordan yesterday. He had seen him last week. He was up around, and had lots of ideas, so nothing new. He's doing well.

Tavis: Well, hopefully Kerry will be up and around with a lot of ideas to make this thing interesting over the next few weeks. Joe, as always, you're welcome back here anytime.

Lockhart: It'll be interesting.

Tavis: Nice talking to you.

Lockhart: OK.

Tavis: Joe Lockhart, now with the Kerry campaign, formerly with Bill Clinton. We will see how these debates play out over the next few weeks as we head up to November 2nd.

Up next on this program, actor Michael K. Williams from the HBO series 'The Wire.' Stay with us. We're back with Michael K. Williams in just a moment.