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• Time magazine article on Mr. Gonzalez
• Southwest Voter Registration Education Project official site
• Hispanic Business article on Mr. Gonzalez

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Tavis: We have assembled a terrific group here tonight to break down the third and final Presidential debate. First up, Debra Saunders, syndicated columnist with the "San Francisco Chronicle," formerly with the "L.A. Daily News." Up next, Antonio Gonzalez, president of the Southwest Voter Registration Education Project, longtime advocate for voter registration and a regular contributor to my NPR program, as is Kimberle Williams Crenshaw, law professor at both UCLA and Columbia. And last, but certainly not least, an old friend, Dennis Prager, syndicated radio talk show host, columnist, and author. Welcome to each of you.

Dennis: Great to be with you, Tavis.

Tavis: This was the last and final debate, and I suspect some are saying, "Thank God." I don't know. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Kimberle Williams Crenshaw: Free at last.

Tavis: Yeah. Free at last. Since this was the domestic debate, let me start by asking whether or not there was a particular domestic issue that you hoped or thought would come up, that did not, because again, I'm not sure it's instructive for us to figure out--try to figure out who won or who lost. We'll figure that out in the coming days, but something domestic that came up--that didn't come up, that you wanted to come up, Debra?

Debra Saunders: Well, I thought that Christopher Reeve would come up, just--even though I know Bob Schieffer didn't ask about it because of his death and because John Kerry had mentioned him at another debate and the fact that Michael J. Fox was sitting in the audience. I have a feeling, by the way, that John Kerry didn't bring him up because John Edwards said that if John Kerry were President, people like Chris Reeve would walk--get out of their chairs and walk again. So I guess that sort of washed it out. I was looking to hear more on foreign policy as it relates as a domestic issue because of the John Kerry interview in "The New York Times" where he talked about treating the war on terrorism sort of as a law enforcement issue and hoping for the day when it would be considered a nuisance like prostitution and gambling.

Tavis: That came up. Bush tried to nail him on that.

Debra: OK. And you say, "tried to nail him," and "tried" is the key word here, because sometimes, I'm afraid, George Bush speaks in sentences and not paragraphs. And I think that that's an idea that a lot of people don't understand that there is a difference between people on the left and people on the right about that. And I'm afraid the President didn't--he brought it up, but he didn't articulate it.

Tavis: That's fascinating, 'cause they tried to Kerry to stop talking in paragraphs and talk in sentences, but I digress on that point. Kimberle, what domestic issue would you have liked to have heard that did not come up tonight?

Kimberle: Well, not too surprisingly, I'm interested in what they had to say or didn't have to say about the courts. Now, they touched on it briefly, but it was en route to talking about abortion. What I actually thought might be a real contestable issue now is what is an activist judge? I mean, after all, this is a period of time after which most Americans saw the Supreme Court being, uh, I guess interventionist in the last election, so I thought there would be far more conversation. This next President is gonna appoint more Supreme Court judges perhaps than any other President in history, and it will affect a range of issues, so I thought that people were gonna talk about it.

Dennis: And that's a big part of the passion.

Tavis: Yeah, go ahead.

Dennis: That's a big part of the passion in the country, but it's unspoken. Because all of us who care about this country, right or left, are worried about who's going to be appointed next. And the answer to an activist judge--and I would love to hear from my colleagues here who are to the left of me. Why is it not considered activist? And I mean this sincerely, how you think. Why is it not activist when a judge says, "I will define marriage, despite what the legislature has said, despite the fact that my state has voted for an amendment to define it as male/female." If that's not activist, then the term should be thrown out.

Tavis: Hold that thought one second. I hate to do this, 'cause I never like to break something up that is a legitimate and significant line of questioning. But I don't want to leave Antonio out with at least his opening shot. I promise, Mr. Prager, I'm coming right back there. Hold that thought for 30 seconds. Antonio, a domestic issue that you wanted to come up, thought might, that did not?

Antonio Gonzalez: Well, I was a little concerned as the debate went on that minimum wage and immigration reform were not going to get heard. But they did get into the last 15, 20 minutes. The glaring omission, I think, was what Kerry tried to sort of slip in, which is campaign finance reform and the utter failure of the McCain-Feingold Bill to take soft money out of politics. We got obscene spending out of the control of either party, and it's really changed the dynamic of both campaigns. And neither candidate really has a perspective on it.

Tavis: Law Professor Crenshaw, I want to give you a chance to respond to Mr. Prager, but before I do that, let me get you to answer this question first, if I might since--host prerogative. Sorry, Dennis.

Dennis: Absolutely.

Tavis: You used to do this to me.

Dennis: I've got my own show.

Tavis: Let me ask you, Kimberle, before you answer Dennis' question, why the issue of the Supreme Court, to your point, did not come up, particularly for John Kerry? If you're trying to play to voters of color, certainly African-Americans and Hispanics, the base of the Democratic Party, why don't you stand up and say the Supreme Court Justice--the Chief Justice just turned 80. There are four members on the court who are now over 65. Clarence Thomas at 56 is the youngest. The next President might appoint four people. Doesn't that play with voters of color? Why didn't Kerry raise it, at least for that reason?

Kimberle: Well, I think one of the reasons is precisely why Dennis asked me the question he asked. I think Democrats haven't figured out how to answer the charge of activist judiciary.

Tavis: So, how should they answer?

Kimberle: So they should have said, first of all, the claim of activism is an incomprehensible claim. When you look at what the conservative Justices have done with respect to, say, violence against women acts, what they've done with respect to disability protection. They overturned legislative inactions--actions as well. So it's not a distinction between who's being activist and who's not. Conservative Justices are being activists, and in fact, more legislation has been overturned by this court than many others in the past. It's a matter of what they consider to be the norms of the Constitution. So you asked why would a court overturn--or say that bans against gay marriage are unconstitutional? What they are saying is that the legislation violates the Constitution in the same way that Justice Scalia, Justice Thomas believed that affirmative action violates the Constitution. These are activists.

Tavis: So is the answer--is the answer, Dennis--are you hearing that all judges are activists these days?

Kimberle: Absolutely.

Dennis: I don't think so. For example, I know it's commonly said that the Supreme Court--and you suggested it--was activist in the 2000 election. But of course, the Supreme Court was responding to the Florida Supreme Court. If Florida Supreme Court had never meddled, then the U.S. Supreme Court would never have meddled. It was undoing what many of us consider--you wouldn't, of course, 'cause you agree with it. I understand that. The mess that had been made by the Florida Supreme Court. So we have too much judge dueling. Right or left, there's too much, and it's not healthy, and if the country--and that's the reason the President is for an amendment to the Constitution on same-sex marriage.

Tavis: Let's leave that there for the moment. We could debate that all night. Let me try to advance this. Debra, I want to come back to you. You write for the "San Francisco Chronicle." We all know that this gay marriage issue has as its epicenter in part not just the Massachusetts Supreme Court, but the city of San Francisco under Mayor Gavin Newsom. There was some conversation tonight between the two of them about gay marriage. Bob Schieffer asked that question very pointedly, very directly. Who do you think did the best of addressing that issue of gay marriage, Kerry or Bush?

Debra: Well, I mean...look at--California is a state that's pretty liberal, but California voters voted against gay marriage. So to the extent that they let American voters know that they're opposed to gay marriage, they both did well. You know, Kimberle brought up something that I found really interesting talking about judges. Now, it's the Blakely decision that's coming up, is it not, before the U.S. Supreme Court? There's a big decision coming up that has to do with mandatory minimums for drugs, and that's an area that would have been very interesting if Bob Schieffer had brought it up, because there's going to be a real showdown, and it's not being discussed by either candidate. There's going to be a real showdown in Washington between the federal courts and Washington, where we have a very, I think, overly aggressive war on drugs on the part of legislators and Congress. And you have the courts that are saying, "Wait a minute. You're not letting judges have a say in this. You're going too far." And I would imagine that you and I might agree on this one.

Kimberle: I think we would. Right.

Debra: And that would be something that would have been fascinating if it'd been brought up, and I'm not sure what either candidate would have to say on that.

Tavis: Antonio, you mentioned earlier that people of color, if we can--if I can put it in the vernacular, black folk and brown folk didn't get a shout-out in four debates, until the last one and then in the last 15 minutes. What'd you make of that?

Antonio: I think that neither candidate wants to alienate voters at the expense of winning voters, and the Kerry campaign in particular has got this challenge. The Democratic base is heavily black and Latino, but their theory of the election is to reach out to moderate and swing voters that are not people of color and that may not agree with some of the immigration reform and civil rights emphasis of people of color. The Bush campaign doesn't have that problem. They clearly had decided to go ideological, and, they, I think, have ceded that they're not going to win large numbers of minority voters. But that keeps them from going there.

Tavis: Let me ask you then whether or not on the part of the Kerry campaign as we move forward over these next couple of weeks, that is, as you see it, a flawed strategy? Are they being stuck on stupid? Might they win the battle and lose the war?

Antonio: No. What they want to do is when they're before the general market audience, if you will, stick to themes that don't lose them voters, and when they're in Spanish language media--

Tavis: Or black churches.

Antonio: Black churches. On the final three weeks, when they're retailing the campaign, that's when they use surrogates, and Kerry, you know, in a way, that limits the damage that can be done, really drills down these issues.

Dennis: After the election, I'd love to come on your show. I've never invited myself before. This is a little silly.

Tavis: Come on, Mr. Prager. Come on.

Dennis: But I would really love to come and talk to you about why blacks so automatically vote Democrat.

Tavis: Mm-hmm.

Dennis: Because I have a theory on it, and it may be too long for now.

Tavis: Give me the short version. I'm gonna follow up...

Dennis: I wrote one of my columns on why Jews and blacks are liberal and vote Democrat, and my basic bottom line--there are many reasons, obviously. It is what I call the paralysis of memory. Jews--most American Jews--and I'm Jewish. But I'm Republican. Most American Jews still remember the Inquisition and the Crusades and Christian anti-Semitism in Europe, and they are very afraid of a resurgent Christianity, and they don't recognize how much American Christians are different from Europe's Christians. Most blacks still powerfully remember the dogs and the water--the water, uh...

Tavis: Water hoses.

Dennis: Hoses of the south and don't want to recognize or can't recognize how much whites have changed in America. And I think both groups are still paralyzed by anger and by fear, and that explains largely the emotionality of their voting, 'cause I think it's emotional, not political.

Tavis: OK. I'll let you come back, but only if Kimberle can come back, 'cause I can see by the look on her face, she wants some of that. So if you come back next time, Kimberle has to come back.

Dennis: Absolutely.

Tavis: But let me ask you, though, Kimberle, to Dennis' point, we've all been seeing these stories over the last few days of the Bush campaign reaching out specifically to African-American voters vis-à-vis the black church.

Kimberle: Yes.

Tavis: They have real, serious, concentrated effort now at the black church, and they're getting a lot of black pastors, a growing number, not the overwhelming, nowhere near majority, but an increasing number of black pastors letting the Bush Republican campaign into their pulpits because black folk have always been more conservative on the moral issues, more liberal on the social questions. And so this issue of gay marriage and abortion is playing. Those two issues are playing with a lot of black pastors. Let me ask you, to that point, then, whether or not the Bush campaign did any damage tonight in getting invited into more black churches critically between now and election day.

Kimberle: You know, I don't think so, Tavis. I mean, I do think it's important to point out that black churches are receptive and responsive to the appeals that are being made by the Republican Party, particularly for these issues. What I think that shows is that they are listening to both messages and on balance, are finding that although they are socially conservative on many these issues, they very much care about the job situation. They very much care about affirmative action. They very much care about the war on drugs. So this is one of many of the issues that I think that as in their living rooms are sitting there and hearing, they're making an assessment based on their own lives. So when President Bush, for example, responds to the minimum wage problem by saying more education, more education, I think many voters, African-American and Latinos, are saying, "That's relevant for my kid, but that's not helping me."

Tavis: I'm glad you said that. Debra, did the President, respectfully--and be honest with me, not that you haven't been. Didn't the President really duck that issue when he was asked specifically about whether or not the minimum wage ought to be raised? To Kim's point, he went to education. I'm not saying there's a disconnect, but he really did duck that question, didn't he?

Debra: You know, he mentioned the Mitch McConnell bill, and I don't know anything about that. Yeah, he did duck it. I want to say something about something Antonio said, though. You have to--

Tavis: I'm sorry. I just love this. That was a moment. You got to respect this. "Yes, he ducked it. Antonio said something..." Ha ha ha! You were honest about that. I appreciate that. It was an honest, quick answer. I love that.

Dennis: She ducked it, too.

Debra: But you know, you have--the other thing you have to understand about John Kerry in terms of the African-American community--and you made the point he wants to pander when he's there and not when he's not--is that there was a time a few years ago when he came out against affirmative action, and so, if he starts playing that card again, then George Bush and--you know, they have that opo-team in the spin room--can start pulling out quotes from basically he had written something about--I don't know. I'm guessing 6 years ago, but you'll be generous with me if I'm off by a few. And so they don't want to have that turned back at them, and obviously they don't want to give the Bush people a chance to bring up the fact that he wasn't always the most positive person about that.

Tavis: Of course, Kerry's response to that was his comment was taken out of context and people focused on one part of the sentence, not the other part. We won't debate that. Let me go back to jobs, though.

Debra: We were talking about before the election.

Tavis: Right. I agree. Antonio, back to jobs. Did the President, did Mr. Kerry make any headway tonight with folks on the jobs issue? Because if, in fact, a domestic debate is about anything, if we are to believe what we're told, we vote pocket book issues. Who won that tonight?

Antonio: I thought Kerry was dominating, particularly in the center, middle part of the debate. There was about four or five questions in a row where he just hit one after another off the centerfield fence on minimum wage, on outsourcing, on the health care crisis. And the President just didn't have--he ducked some and went to education. On others he didn't have much of an answer. Denied the problem. And if you're part of the Democratic base, you really got the red meat that you wanted. Even if the way it was served up by Senator Kerry was not particularly passionate, he said all the things that people wanted to hear. That center part of the debate, I think he was just devastating.

Tavis: I said to Peter Jennings earlier to night before we did this show that I'm not sure there really is something known--something as an undecided voter. I think people are saying that because--

Dennis: They're looking for media attention.

Tavis: I think people are saying that because they want media attention. I don't know how anybody can be--

Antonio: There's something else to that. They're not people that are undecided. They're people that are soft. I think persuadables is a better definition.

Tavis: Persuadables.

Antonio: You see that...before the first debate there was about a 5-point to 10-point gap, and then afterwards, it swung-...there was about a 13-point swing towards Kerry. Those were not undecideds that decided. They were Republicans that switched to Democrat because they were persuadable.

Tavis: OK.

Antonio: And it's because there are people that just aren't--they're on the margins, that aren't passionate. You see it in the minority community for John Kerry. They're for him, but, you know, not at a 50-point gap in the black community or a 30-point gap in the Latino community. They're 10, 15 points lower and you have that on the Republican side as well with moderates.

Tavis: Dennis, first of all, we thank Antonio for introducing a new political term into the American lexicon--persuadables. We'll remember that.

Dennis: As opposed to undecided.

Antonio: In addition to undecideds. They say they're for Bush but--

Tavis: But they're persuadable.

Antonio: Like my dad, right? He's for Bush, but he's listening to Kerry.

Dennis: Your dad is for Bush?

Antonio: You bet.

Dennis: Honor your father and your mother.

Antonio: My mom's for Kerry.

Dennis: Oh. Honor your father first.

Tavis: Dennis, let me ask you. You're on radio every day talking to people. If, in fact, if there is something known and there are people who are undecideds or persuadables, was there a particular issue or issues that you think that Kerry or Bush should have hit harder tonight to play to that audience?

Dennis: Debra made the point and as a Bush supporter, I felt that in all three debates, he makes great points and leaves them there. And I'm saying, wait a minute. Just develop that point. He called terrorism a nuisance in the "New York Times" magazine. This not in the "National Review." This was the cover piece of the "New York Times" magazine this past Sunday. And they sent their reporter out to show the gravitas of Senator Kerry and it turned out that he was a hollow man on major issues. The author in effect said that. He could have been devastating on that point, but that's not his style. And I got to say this. I am very curious how you folks who supported--who support Senator Kerry, when he compared the President to a Mafioso, I thought that was wrong. I don't think he won on that, Senator Kerry, when he made the analogy, oh, that's like Joe Soprano--Tony Soprano--

Tavis: Lecturing me about law and order.

Dennis: Yeah. This is the President of the United States. There is still--I mean, I don't like--

Tavis: Dennis, come on. Be honest. The audience--you heard the audience. The audience laughed at that and Bush's "pay and go" line tanked. It didn't work. Kerry's line got laughter.

Dennis: Yes, it may get laughter but that doesn't in and of itself mean that in the final analysis it will be swallowed well. It may taste good in the moment--

Tavis: Are you predicting tomorrow that the conservatives are going to take that and be offended by it?

Dennis: I don't know. No. I think it's a line that didn't do him well.

Tavis: OK. Debra?

Dennis: He didn't look distinguished with that.

Debra: Calling George Bush Tony Soprano is nicer than a lot of the things the Democrats have been calling him this year.

Dennis: To his face.

Debra: OK, to his face. He's been called a Nazi. He's been called somebody who lied to the country. Tony Soprano? Well, hey, at least he's in people's homes on Sunday nights. I don't think--

Tavis: Kimberle, Is this much ado about nothing? Is Dennis picking at straws here?

Kimberle: Well, I think we know what Dennis' spin tomorrow is going to be, and then we'll see if there are any legs to it. I think it was just a modest attempt to show that he could be humorous and particularly biting at the same time. He does sort of come off, you know, like he wouldn't know anything about popular culture. I think that was fine. I think some of his other lines were actually even more biting when he said that the President had outsourced the job of killing bin Laden. I thought that was--

Dennis: Oh, he says that all the time.

Kimberle: But it was a zinger.

Dennis: You're right. It is a zinger, and I don't know why--the President has an answer. You use the local people who know the terrain better than we do. That's why we used Afghans. There was a strategic reason. It wasn't to outsource.

Tavis: OK, but Dennis and Debra, here's the question, then. Why is it--I've been dying to ask somebody this. Why is it--this is not casting aspersions on the President, but to the points you both make, the President makes these points, leaves them hanging, can't develop them. Why should he be President? Why should he be President if you guys can make his argument for him better than he can make it for himself?

Debra: Because we want somebody to be President, not debate coach. OK, I was going nuts. And by the way, I looked up to see what John Kerry said before he voted for the Iraq resolution. He didn't say a word about looking for Osama bin Laden, let's do that first. That outsourcing line sounds cute, but this is also the same guy who says let's train more Iraqi troops. That's outsourcing by his definition. We're looking for somebody who can be President. We all know that George Bush is not the most syntactically sophisticated person in the world.

Tavis: That's a nice way of putting it.

Dennis: But it's overrated how non-syntactically excellent he is. He speaks very fluently, but he's not the best debater. So what? So he's probably not the best chess player. He's a great President. I want to just be on TV before the election. There are Americans with brains who think he is a great President.

Tavis: Well, you're on TV, and that was seen, Dennis. In 15 seconds--

Dennis: On your show.

Tavis: Thank you, Dennis. In 15 seconds each, Debra, what happens now? Between now and November 2, what happens?

Debra: I hope nothing bad.

Tavis: Yeah.

Debra: And I think George Bush will be elected, but I'm not sure. There are two questions. One is does Bush under-poll because people don't want to admit they vote for him, and two, are the Democrats registering enough Democratic voters who aren't being polled we don't know about them.

Tavis: Right quick, Antonio. What happens?

Antonio: I think you get another small bump for John Kerry from this debate. He clearly had the advantage. And if it's a race within two points, then Kerry wins on the surge of dramatic expansion of the Democratic base.

Tavis: Kimberle, what happens?

Kimberle: I think it's trench warfare right now. I think the question of whether or not we've seen a surge in registrants actually turns into a bump for Kerry or Bush is what we'll find out over the next couple of weeks. I think that the focus is going to be on whether the explanations actually jibe with people's lives. I think that's what Kerry said, does it make sense to you, and people will be asking that question.

Tavis: Who else but Dennis Prager to have the last word in 10 seconds.

Dennis: I'm going to four cities next week in the embattled states to speak to Jewish communities, and I'll tell you that there's a lot of fluidity there. It'll be very interesting to see what happens with the Jews of Florida, Pennsylvania, and Ohio.

Tavis: Dennis Prager, Kimberle Williams Crenshaw, Antonio Gonzalez, Debra Saunders, thank you all for a very spirited conversation. We've got to do this again sometime. We have to meet like this again.

Dennis: Yes.

Tavis: That's our show for tonight. You can always catch me on the radio on NPR. I'll see you back here next time on PBS. Until then, thanks for watching, good night from Los Angeles, and as always, keep the faith.