E-mail a friendSen. Lincoln Chafee
airdate October 26, 2004
A moderate Republican, Sen. Lincoln Chafee has gone on record as an 'uncommitted' voter in this year's presidential election. In '99, Chafee was appointed by Rhode Island's governor to fill the unexpired term of his father, the late Sen. John Chafee, and was elected to the seat in 2000. He began his political career in '85 and served two terms on the Warwick city council. In '92, he became Warwick's first Republican elected mayor in 32 years. Chafee serves on the Foreign Relation committee.
Sen. Lincoln Chafee
Tavis: Senator Lincoln Chafee is a respected member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who made headlines when he became the only Republican Senator to vote against the authorization of force in Iraq. Since then, he has continued to express doubts about how the Bush administration is dealing with Iraq, doubts which played a crucial role in his recent decision to not vote for President Bush's re-election. He joins us tonight from Washington. Senator, nice to have you on the program, sir.
Senator Lincoln Chafee: Thank you for inviting me.
Tavis: I'm glad to have you here. Let me start by asking when your--I don't want to put words in your mouth, you can speak well for yourself--but when did your disillusion with the Bush administration begin? Take me back to when you started to have concerns about the direction they were taking this country, or not, as it were.
Chafee: Well, as a supporter of Governor Bush when he was first campaigning and even in the state of Rhode Island where Senator McCain was in a primary with him, I was supporting then-Governor Bush, and Senator McCain ended up winning the Republican primary in Rhode Island in the year 2000. So as a supporter, I thought he was saying all the right things. When Jim Lehrer asked him in one of the debates, 'How would you conduct foreign policy?' He said, 'It's important to be humble, that if they're arrogant, they'll resent us,' and I'm going, 'That's my man. That's my candidate.'
But I also had some doubts when he went to Bob Jones University. I'm wondering, 'Which is the real George Bush?' And then in January of '01, right after the inauguration, started to see a much harder line come out of the new administration. And this is before September 11th, of course. Pushing for the tax cuts, getting out of the Kyoto global warming treaty, talking about missile defense and some of the other--getting rid of international treaties gave me a great deal of concern. And then after September 11th, beating the drums for a war in Iraq, of all things, had nothing to do with Al Qaeda, all part of the process of saying I cannot support the president at this time.
Tavis: I think you just started down this road, and I want to give you more room to expound upon this for me. Tell me what it is more specifically about his Iraq policy that so concerns you. I heard the point you made earlier that he left Afghanistan, chasing Al Qaeda to get to Iraq, but go deeper for me if you can.
Chafee: Well, what concerns me most is that I know that certain--they call them the neo-cons--have a plan for the Middle East, but you don't hear it talked about. And now we hear that Prime Minister Sharon in Israel, his top chief of staff is saying there was never a commitment to the road map. We're trying to find out what is happening in the Middle East and why. And I'd just like some more honesty on it.
If it's not about weapons of mass destruction--that's obviously not accurate-- if it's not about Al Qaeda--that's not accurate--is it about getting peace between the Palestinians and Israelis, and if so, how are we gonna do that? It's kind of in the closet, it's in the shadows, this plan as to what we're gonna do in the Middle East. I'd like to have it debated nationally and talked about more, and I don't see that happening. So it all ties in to credibility, and the same doubts we have about weapons of mass destruction now we're seeing on the road map. It's kind of a lack of credibility that is a problem.
Tavis: When you said you'd like to see it debated more, isn't that what you all do in the Senate, have deliberations all day on C-SPAN?
Chafee: Well, it's hard to get someone from the administration to come up and talk about this whole new spreading of democracy in the Middle East. You get a lot of smoke screens, you get a lot of talk about a road map when we're finding out there was never a commitment to the road map. We're finding this out now. The chief of staff to Prime Minister Sharon is saying, 'Oh, no, we were never gonna follow through on that process. And the American administration was supportive of our lack of commitment to it.' And that's what he's saying now. Well, we've been hearing from the administration for months and for years that the road map is the process. So as I said, we're trying to find out what the truth is, and sometimes it's difficult.
Tavis: Let me move from your global/international concerns about President Bush to your domestic concerns about him. Earlier you mentioned taxes. Talk to me more about what has disappointed you or concerned you about the president's stewardship or lack thereof of our economy.
Chafee: Well, again, going back to the first months of the new administration in the spring of '01...2001--and the push, push, push for these massive tax cuts--big, big tax cuts, $1.6 trillion tax cuts.
And I had just run for reelection for Senate in Rhode Island. I didn't hear anybody talking about wanting a tax cut. We all don't like to pay taxes, but we liked the economy. The economy was good. And we just got into surpluses. And I was saying to my Republican colleagues, 'Suppose something goes wrong? Suppose there's hurricanes or floods or some kind of catastrophe? We've gotta be prepared.' And something did go wrong. We got September 11th, and we're not prepared for it now financially. We've got the baby boomers retiring.
So John McCain and I were the only two Republican senators to vote against these big tax cuts. And we're back into big deficits after working so hard through the nineties to get out of them. And I think, as I said, with the baby boomers retiring, we've got some big troubles ahead. It's hard now to go back and increase taxes. Nobody wants to do that. As a result, how are we going to get out of this deficit hole?
Tavis: So what does Lincoln Chafee do on Election Day if you're not going to vote for George W. Bush? You're not votin' for John Kerry, are you?
Chafee: No, as a Republican, I support the team. In Rhode Island, it's very easy to write somebody in and, as a symbolic protest, I'm writing in the president's father, former President Bush.
Tavis: OK, let me ask you how you are being treated these days, if I could ask that. Of course, I could ask it. You ain't gotta answer it. But I'm sure you will. How you being treated these days by your Republican colleagues on the Hill and, for that matter, in the broader Republican Party?
Chafee: Well, before I answer that, I will say that, in writing in the former president, I know a lot of people that have supported Governor Bush when he was running--the present president--had a feeling that we'd go back to some of the policies of his father, whether it's on the environment or international relations. So there's many of us Republicans that are kind of disappointed on that.
As to how I'm being treated in the party, the truth of the matter is that the Senate is very evenly divided. 51-49 are the numbers. And so just practically I cannot be treated too harshly because they need me as a Republican, and I try and voice my issues to my fellow Republicans. I think I have a good relationship with them, because I do speak up. I talk about the deficits. I talk about the war in Iraq, and so hopefully I have some respect for at least being honest and willing to express my views and independence.
Tavis: Well, as you well know, what caused those numbers to shift a couple years ago, a few years ago, was Jim Jeffords of Vermont switched from being Republican and moved to being an Independent. There are questions swirling about whether or not you might switch to the other party and become a Democrat or whether you might leave the Republican Party and become an Independent, which would give two Independents, of course, in the United States Senate. What are your thoughts on that kind of speculation about your future plans?
Chafee: Well, the important thing in remembering Jim Jeffords is that everybody's saying, 'Well, everything changed after September 11th.' Don't forget that Jim Jeffords switched parties before September 11th. He switched parties...
Tavis: Let me ask you whether or not--I shouldn't say whether or not. Clearly you've articulated your issues with the Bush administration. Let me ask you to the point you make now, what your concerns are about your party and the direction your party is headed in more broadly.
Chafee: Well, there's a number of issues, whether it's international relations-- and the facts are that anti-Americanism around the world is rising, and the president commissioned a report that said hostility toward America is reaching alarming proportions. We have to be concerned about that. The deficits again is a big issue. The environment, what we're doing with the environment. I am pro-choice. What happens with the Supreme Court--these are all issues. I don't think it would be good for the country whether you're pro-choice or pro-life to have Roe vs. Wade just torn apart. I don't think that would be good for the country.
Tavis: Let me ask you--and this might be a distinction that you can't make, but I want to probe it anyway--you have concerns clearly about the president's policy in Iraq or lack thereof. Do you have problems, though, with the notion of this so-called Bush doctrine of preemptive strike?
Chafee: Yes, and again, it wasn't really debated. If the president wanted to, you know, embark on this kind of policy, why didn't he say so in the elections--the fall of 2000? In fact, he said the opposite. When Jim Lehrer asked him very pointedly 'How would you conduct foreign policy?' And he said, 'It's important to be humble. If they're arrogant, they'll resent us.' That's so different from unilateral preemption, and it didn't have anything to do with September 11th. It was all prior to September 11th we saw this policy starting to be unfolded, and that's my dispute. Let's have a good, honest debate about it. Let's not hide in the shadows with it.
Tavis: Have we become an arrogant country?
Chafee: Unfortunately, yes, very much. You talk to anybody around the world. Our best friends, our allies are saying that America's just changed their policies so drastically. And we live in a world of nuclear weapons. We want to have our strength but at the same time, we live in a world that's dangerous, and we need as many friends as we can have, and we need our allies. We need our friends. We need to cultivate new ones.
Tavis: Well, whether you agree or disagree with Lincoln Chafee, one thing is certain. It takes courage and conviction and commitment to break with your party, to be the only member to do so. And so, Senator Chafee, we thank you for coming on the program to express your concerns about this election, and you're welcome back here any time. Nice to talk to you, sir.
Chafee: Likewise. Thank you for inviting me again.
Tavis: I appreciate having you on, Senator. Thank you.
Chafee: Best wishes.
Tavis: Senator Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island.
Coming up next on this program, actor Benjamin McKenzie from the new hit TV series 'The O.C.,' about to start their next season. I saw this guy at the Democratic Convention in Boston and invited him on the program. We'll talk to Benjamin McKenzie from 'The O.C.' in just a moment. Stay with us.
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