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Tavis: Bishop Harry Jackson is the senior pastor at the Hope Christian Church, based in College Park, Maryland, just outside of Washington, D.C. Earlier this week, he announced a new initiative called "The Black Contract with America on Moral Values." Bishop Jackson is a registered Democrat, but backed President Bush's re-election in November. He's also the author of the book 'High Impact African-American Churches.' Bishop Jackson, thanks for joining us. Nice to see you, man.

Bishop Harry Jackson, Jr.: Tavis, good to be with you.

Tavis: Glad to have you here, man. Let me, um--let me just ask what you think the president's outreach to black America vis-à-vis black churches accomplished in this last election?

Jackson: Well, I think it got him elected.

Tavis: You think so?

Jackson: I really do. Think about it--

Tavis: I mean, he jumped--not to cut you off--he jumped from like 9% to 11%, but you argue that got him elected?

Jackson: Well, think about it. Only 60,000 votes made the difference in Ohio.

Tavis: Right.

Jackson: If he lost Ohio, he lost the race, so, really, they doubled the vote in Ohio, and that made the difference. Now, also Florida, there was a doubling of the black vote, but in those swing states, there was a major difference there, and black Christians voted just like the normative mainstream Christian community, but we didn't get anything in return. We only got the privilege of saying, hey, some of the things we were afraid of may not be acted out. But that's not a positive movement. That's just protecting territory, and we need to advance, I believe, the cause of Christians, but more specifically, black America needs to be taken seriously. Um, you know, the Democrats came out the last 6 weeks of the election, they were like a man in an adulterous affair, comin' at midnight knockin' on the door, wantin' what they want, and then leavin'.

Tavis: Ain't nothin' new about that, though.

Jackson: No.

Tavis: They've always done that.

Jackson: Yeah, but it shouldn't be the case. We ought to be able to set an agenda ahead of time and get both parties to vie for our vote, but also more importantly, to let them begin to establish their platforms based on what we think is real morality.

Tavis: OK, you and I both agree on that, and I want to talk more about how that gets accomplished in fact in just a moment--how the black community, which for years now has been a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic party, can make both parties respect them and come for their votes in a serious sort of way. Let's talk about that in a second. Before I get to that, though, let me ask you though, on what issues specifically--I think I know, but I don't want to prejudge your answer--on what one or two issues specifically did President Bush get traction with a bunch of black pastors such as yourself?

Jackson: Well, what happened, based on the Biblical values of black church--same-sex marriage and, in a lesser degree, abortion. And really, a lot of folks were saying, "Uh-uh, you're not gonna do this." And I think it was not because blacks were anti-gay, black clergy who were on the right, but rather they were saying, let's protect marriage 'cause 2 out of every 3 black babies today are born out of wedlock, and there's a disintegration of the black family, so what we're saying is draw a boundary line around families, not "We don't like gay people," but rather, if we let this thing called family and culture in the black community keep sliding down the slippery slope it's going, what are we gonna have left? And we've got to start somewhere at changing America as far as blacks go.

Tavis: The problem, though, that so many other African-Americans have with black preachers who bought into that line of thinking, and in terms of full disclosure, I'm one of these persons who had a real problem. I go to a black church. I have a black pastor, but I have a real problem with black pastors who bought that line of logic for this particular reason--it seems to me that you can protect the institution of marriage, the traditional institution of marriage, without supporting the president on the constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, because if anything black folk ought to understand, it is that we have never amended the constitution to restrict the liberties and freedoms of anybody, only to expand them, and once they go after gays and lesbians with the buy-in of black preachers, who they comin' after next? I mean, can't you support the institution of marriage without supporting amending the constitution to redefine, or to put in the constitution what that definition of marriage is as defined by the conservative right?

Jackson: Well, it seems that without judicial help, meaning enforcing laws that are already on the books, it didn't seem like there are a lot of other options. My higher vision, though, is this--I want the sacred right of marriage to be protected. I personally, and I think you'd agree with me, think that anybody in this land needs all the civil rights that the country affords. So if you want to transfer property, if you want to make sure that if you're living with someone that you can see him in the hospital, they'll be taken care of health care, I don't have issues with that. What I have issues with is that in societies in which marriage has been devalued, I don't even understand the correlation. I got studies in my briefcase here. Somehow, everybody says, "Mmm, I'm not gettin' married." Somehow, unwed mother rates go up, and we've already got enough of that in the black community. So I trust that I'm a little bit of a thoughtful person, but I'm not a politically oriented person in terms of detailed policy. My problem was that we only had 2 options.

Tavis: I don't think black voters, though, not unlike most voters, but certainly black voters who've always been more, as you, I think, will agree, more conservative on the moral questions, more liberal on the social questions. Black folk, then, have never been single-issue voters. So how, then, do these black pastors buy into supporting the president where he may be in alignment with them on one or two issues, but every poll, survey, and study suggests that every black person I know seems to think that on every other issue, he is pushing an agenda that is antithetical to the best interests of black people?

Jackson: Well, that's why we gotta talk with him about a contract. He's gotta get on the right page. But I think what happened was this--folks looked at a priority of what they felt was life issues: you know, life and death, babies, family, and they said these things are more important than the economic issues. Here's how I see it.

Tavis:Two issues of the Bible, righteousness and justice. And the black community historically has voted for justice issues, which are Biblical. And unfortunately, the Democratic Party did not bring a cogent, coherent articulation of morality to those black church leaders. And because they didn't do that, the Republicans won their allegiance. And so I'm here to say that we need to do what, uh, Rabbi Michael Lerner--I think, on a radio program we did together before--he said at the end of a week-long discussion, we need the black church to step up and redefine morality. And so I'm giving my shot at it, but I think that you're right: you can't say that we're gonna tear up all these pages in the Bible about justice and hold up a third of the Bible.

Tavis: But isn't the problem--isn't the problem that neither party addresses both righteousness and justice?

Jackson: That's it. You said it totally.

Tavis: All right. Let me jump--since we're approaching the Super Bowl, let me do a quick 2-minute drill. You like football? 2-minute drill. These are the 6 key areas in your plan for this contract. Give me a quick word on each one: reconstruction of the family.

Jackson: We've got to do more than just be against something. We need to be for foster care and adoption of black kids.

Tavis: Wealth creation in urban areas.

Jackson: We've got to build more black businesses and increase home ownership among blacks by 20% if things are to be equal.

Tavis: Education reform.

Jackson: We've got to look at all these issues of choice and say start this stuff in the inner cities. You want vouchers? You want--help my people first. Let the black community be a target of those things.

Tavis: Prison reform.

Jackson: One out of every 3 black adults are gonna be involved in the prison system. It can't keep going on like that. And this has been historically a Democratic issue. Republicans have got to step up.

Tavis: Healthcare reform.

Jackson: Healthcare--poverty induces all kind of health-related challenges, and we got to do something now that's poverty-oriented that helps black people.

Tavis: And something President Bush spoke about last night--not that he didn't address the other issues, but certainly spent some time in the State of the Union address--addressing African relief.

Jackson: Yeah. That is so critical because, basically, we don't really care as a nation in general about Africa. We'll go to Europe, we'll go to Middle East. But if we had trade sanctions that dealt with the Sudan right now, we could deal with them like we did with South Africa and change the way religious and racial prejudice happens in that world.

Tavis: The book, in case you want to read more, and I'm certain that after this conversation you do...'High Impact African-American Churches.' There's a whole movement of megachurches, they are called, inside black America that are having a huge impact--a high impact, to borrow a phrase--on the agenda of the African-American community. 'High Impact African-American Churches: Leadership Concepts from Some of Today's Most Effective Churches,' written, co-authored by Bishop Harry R. Jackson, Jr. Bishop Jackson, nice to see you.

Jackson: Thank you, Tavis.

Tavis: We'll do it again. Thank you, sir. Up next, the most successful singing duo in all of music history. I can't wait for this: a conversation and a special performance by Hall & Oates. Stay with us.