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• Article on Ms. Merkerson
• Lackawanna Blues
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Tavis: S. Epatha Merkerson is a talented actress who's been a fixture on one of TV's best and most successful franchises "L&O," "Law and Order." The latest project for the Tony award-nominee is the HBO film "Lackawanna Blues." The film's E.P., executive producer is none other than Halle Berry, and the terrific cast includes Mos Def, Louis Gossett Jr., and Jimmy Smits. Here now a scene from "Lackawanna Blues."

Ruben: But I ain't no lady, and when Uncle Bill hurts you, I want to hurt him back. Sometimes I hate him.

Nanny: I don't never want to hear that word outta you, you hear me? I done had to deal with that poison my whole life. It's all right to be upset, but not hate. Now, I know you just tryin' to help Nanny, and I thank you, but I been takin' care of myself for 50-some-odd years just fine and ain't had to hate nor hurt nobody to do it.

Tavis: Mmm. S. Epatha, nice to see you.

S. Epatha Merkerson: It's good to be here.

Tavis: I'm glad to have you on the program, and nice to see you on the ground. I was teasing before we came on the air, here that I keep threatening my E.P., Neil, that one day, I'm gonna just come in and say, "I want to do a week of shows featuring people I have met in airports," so you and I met on an airplane.

Merkerson: That's right.

Tavis: I mean, so many people travelin' around the country on airplanes, so it's nice to see you on the ground.

Merkerson: Yes, absolutely.

Tavis: That's what I meant by that. I wrote this down 'cause I didn't want to screw this up. One of my favorite lines in the movie, certainly with regard to explaining the character Nanny that you play, there's a quote in the movie, a line that says, "Nanny was like the government if it really worked." "Nanny was like the government if it really worked." What's that line mean?

Merkerson: Well, I think it's because here's a woman that has all the care and desire to help people, and she can actually do it, and Nanny actually brings, you know, from migrating from the south, bringing them north and helping them out and, you know, the government always says it's gonna help you do something, but to get to it, there's so much red tape. Nanny gets rid of all the red tape. She gets right to the problem, and she deals with it.

Tavis: One of my favorite lines about the government, somebody told me years ago, a couple of 'em. Of course, we all know "The check's in the mail."

Merkerson: Right, right, right.

Tavis: My favorite line is, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you." Sure.

Merkerson: Exactly. Yeah, but Nanny does. She's actually one of those people that says she's gonna do something and then does it. Yeah.

Tavis: What is it about--I don't know if you can answer this question. I'll let you try. I'm just gonna ask the question, you answer. What is it about the black cultural experience that creates these Nanny personalities? We all have a Nanny in our lives.

Merkerson: Absolutely. You know, I really don't know what it is about the culture other than perhaps where we've come from, the idea of slavery and not having that opportunity to help one another, and so when we are faced with whether we bring someone north to help them find a job or whatever the situation is, I think there was a time in our lives where that was very important to us and because we couldn't before. That privilege was not a part of our living.

Tavis: I want to talk about "Law and Order" in a second, but I don't want my friend Halle Berry to call me and say, "Tavis, you didn't talk about "Lackawanna Blues" long enough," so for Halle, let me talk about "Lackawanna Blues." Tell me more about the story.

Merkerson: She's my producer, so we have to make her happy.

Tavis: That's why we doin' this.

Merkerson: OK.

Tavis: Tell me what--a brother never wants to be on Halle Berry's bad side.

Merkerson: OK.

Tavis: Especially if your name is Eric Benet, but that's another story. Leave that alone. Anyway, tell me more about the story line.

Merkerson: It's taken from a true story. Ruben Santiago-Hudson, it's a story about his upbringing. He was brought up by a woman named Rachel Crosby who ran a boardinghouse, and the boardinghouse was really for what I'm gonna call misfits. They were good people, but they were part of the society that people wanted to ignore, and Ruben was brought up in this environment of this boardinghouse. And so, basically, it's a story about from his eyes how he grew up in this house and the woman who was very instrumental in raising him. He wasn't raised by his mother, he was raised by Nanny, and what I especially like about the film is that it's really set in this very heavy cultural point, right before desegregation, and so not only are you dealing with this child's innocence and living with these people, but also of a period where we were losing our innocence, we were losing our communities, and Nanny kept her community together.

Tavis: I think you might have just answered the question I want to ask now, but I want to ask it anyway because it seems to me there are so many themes, so many themes of empowerment, for lack of a better word, that run through this project. When you were looking at the script that Ms. Berry sent to you, considering whether or not to do the part, what themes or dominant theme jumped out at you that convinced you to want to be a part of this project?

Merkerson: You know, it actually started when I saw the play, because--Ruben, when you left, you knew that you had seen 40 characters, but there was only one person there. And the music that was with it, it gave you a sense of an era, and when I spoke with George, I think that's when the whole cultural aspect really came into play because it was the first thing that he said to me, that this is a story about the end of our communities, and that really permeated more than anything else. So that you have this cultural story that these people are working through, and I think that's why it has such a strength to it because it's not hammered. It's subtle, visual, of a period that is gone, and a lot of people understand that. I was thinking earlier about the Ken Burns documentary "New York," where he talks about the Cross-Bronx Expressway going straight through a Jewish community. It absolutely destroyed the community. That's what happened with integration: a lot of our communities were destroyed because the checks and balances were gone. We had merchants, we had the lawyers, the teachers, the doctors--everyone checked each other. You know, I'm not saying numbers weren't run, I'm not saying drugs weren't--

Tavis: Oh, the numbers were run.

Merkerson: They were run.

Tavis: Ha ha ha ha!

Merkerson: You know what I'm saying? But there was, you know, Mrs. Jones, she was the teacher. And when the numbers runner saw Mrs. Jones, he knew she didn't like it, so he wouldn't...he wouldn't write his numbers down in front of her. It was checks and balances, and I think that's what I love about the film. It sort of gives you the end of that, when everything was sort of leaving and people were moving on.

Tavis: You know what's fascinating about that is...and I'm just curious if you have a take on this. I've been in a thousand and one conversations over the last few years-- I don't know what's really sparked this--I think what it is that we've had so many major anniversaries in black America of late, you know: the 40th anniversary of the Civil Rights March and the 100th anniversary of Dubois' "The Souls of Black Folk" and the 35th anniversary of James Baldwin's "The Fire Next Time," and now this year the 40th anniversary of the passing of the civil rights--the Voting Rights law. So there's so many anniversaries we're celebrating in black, of late, that I think that's probably fueling this conversation. The point is, though, that I've been in a lot of conversations of Late about whether or not integration was a good thing.

Merkerson: Personally? I don't know if it was. I mean, I certainly think that there are aspects of it that were very important. I'm the last of 5 children, raised single parent. My mother was able to, each time her job got better, she was able to move us to a better place, better school, uh, a better neighborhood. And I think those were the things that allowed segregation to be good, to be healthy. But where I think it was unhealthy is that it's dismantled our neighborhoods. It took away...you know, I keep saying checks and balances, but, you know, Dr. Graves down the street was someone that you always respected. And he knew that, you know, Elmo was doing drugs. He would watch out for him. And it was just that community, the merchants were there. It was that sense of community that I think is scattered. And, you know, I'm living in Harlem now, and Harlem ain't looking like it used to look. And so--what happens to the culture?

Tavis: It's experiencing a renaissance, though, is it not? The price of property--the price of property has gone up.

Merkerson: It's a white renaissance. You can walk around Harlem, some areas where you would have never seen young white girls with their dogs out at night, you know what I'm saying? It's different.

Tavis: White girls in Harlem walking dogs?

Merkerson: At night, baby. You know what I'm saying, like, you know...

Tavis: Hey!

Merkerson: "Go on, do your business."

Tavis: Ha ha ha ha ha!

Merkerson: Like that.

Tavis: Yeah.

Merkerson: But--so my question is what happens to the culture? What happens to that really rich history of Harlem that made me move there in the first place?

Tavis: Um...that's--we could spend--that's a seminar. We could devote a whole series of shows--

Merkerson: True.

Tavis: On that notion, with the time I have left, how much fun have you had for these 12 seasons now playing a lieutenant on "Law and Order?"

Merkerson: I've had a blast. You know, 'cause of--my favorite thing is being on a street and having somebody come up to me and say, "Girl, I'm gonna tell you the truth."

Tavis: Ha ha ha.

Merkerson: "I'm gonna tell you the truth."

Tavis: It's a--

Merkerson: It's great. You know, "Girl, you wear it out. I love it when you tell them brothers what to do. I love it when you tell them what to do."

Tavis: I think I've told you this story. I actually lost a bet-- there's a guy. He's probably watching right now. His daughter runs my office. His name is Claude Pines. He is the biggest S. Epatha Merkerson fan in the world. Does not miss "Law and Order." Loves you. Doesn't miss the show, and bet me money that you played a character in the first season that was different than the character you played when you appeared later--2 seasons later.

Merkerson: Yes.

Tavis: So I lost this money. So he's apparently right about this.

Merkerson: You lost the money. He was wrong about what the character was.

Tavis: OK. The first season, you played--

Merkerson: I played a cleaning lady.

Tavis: OK. Not a homeless lady?

Merkerson: Not a homeless lady.

Tavis: He said you were homeless.

Merkerson: No. Girl had a house.

Tavis: Ha ha ha!

Merkerson: That was half of the problem. It was a great episode.

Tavis: Right.

Merkerson: 'Cause a young brother came and shot my kid--

Tavis: Right.

Merkerson: 'Cause he couldn't read. He came to the wrong home. It was--to this day, it's my favorite episode.

Tavis: Well, then you came back 2 seasons later--

Merkerson: 2 seasons later as a lieutenant. Night school. We all know me.

Tavis: Ha ha ha! And you've been there 12 seasons now.

Merkerson: 12 seasons, yeah.

Tavis: The passing of Jerry Orbach, though, was, for all of those "L&O" fans, really sad.

Merkerson: That was difficult. I mean, you know, because...there was something in Jerry's spirit that didn't allow the word death come into play with it. And I knew Jerry was ill when he left the show, 'cause that's not something he would have done. And he will be sorely missed. Jerry--Jerry was like a quintessential New Yorker. You could ask Jerry any question, and he would have an answer for you. And lots of times he would say to me, "Kid, I'll get back to you tomorrow."

Tavis: Yeah.

Merkerson: But he--I loved him. He was a--he was a funny man. He knew how to make me laugh, and he tried--

Tavis: And he didn't start as a lieutenant.

Merkerson: No, he was a lawyer.

Tavis: Started out as a lawyer.

Merkerson: He was a lawyer.

Tavis: So big Wolf give y'all a chance to grow over there.

Merkerson: That's what I...you gotta love him. You know, you gotta love him 'cause he gives you that opportunity.

Tavis: Well, Dick, if you're looking for some help...

Merkerson: Ha ha ha! We'll bring you in.

Tavis: I'm a fast learner. I'm a real fast learner. S. Epatha, nice to see you.

Merkerson: It was really my pleasure.

Tavis: I'll see you in the airport, I'm sure, somewhere.

Merkerson: There you go.

Tavis: "Lackawanna Blues" on HBO. Check it out. That's our show for tonight. I'll see you back here next time on PBS. Until then, thanks for watching. Good night from Los Angeles and keep the faith.