TONIGHT
E-mail a friendJim Wallis
airdate February 25, 2005
A commentator on ethics and public life, Jim Wallis spent his student years in the civil rights and antiwar movements and founded Sojourners magazine as a Christian commitment to social justice. In '95, he helped form Call to Renewal, a national federation of churches, denominations and faith-based organizations across the political spectrum, working to overcome poverty. Wallis offers regular commentary and analysis for radio and TV, and his columns appear in various major newspapers.
Jim Wallis
Tavis: I am pleased to welcome back to this program Jim Wallis. The founder and editor of 'Sojourner's" magazine is out with a provocative new book that has become an instant bestseller. The book is called 'God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It.' And, Jim, every Sunday for the past few weeks, I wake up and grab my 'New York Times' and go right to the book review section to see where you are this week. And this thing is climbing with a bullet.
Jim Wallis: Well, you know, the good news may be that the monologue by the religious right is over and a new dialogue has finally begun on faith, values, and politics.
Tavis: And what ought that new dialogue be about? We know what the conversation has been, but what ought the new dialogue be about?
Wallis: Well, that the only two moral values aren't just abortion and gay marriage, that this bible--the bible we read is full of thousands of verses on poverty, so fighting poverty is a moral value, too. The ethics of war is a religious matter. Protecting the environment also is a religious concern. So we have these book signings that become town meetings, with all kinds of folks coming out who feel unrepresented by the voices that had been speaking on this topic. They have faith, too, they have values, too, and they want their voice to be heard, so we're having a great time.
Tavis: I want to talk more in a moment here about what the right gets wrong and what the left doesn't get, the subtitle of the book, but I want to ask now, I've been reading a lot of pieces lately, and I've been waiting to ask you how you are--how you viewed, how you're perceiving these stories that are being written where you basically have become the evangelical on the left. The Democrats--I saw an article where you went to speak to many of the senate Democrats and house Democrats about what they don't get. Um, how comfortable are you with the expression of your faith and the writing of this book, having made you the Pat Robertson of the left, the Jerry Falwell of the left, the evangelical on the left? You comfortable with that position?
Wallis: Well, those guys aren't exactly my role models, as you might imagine.
Tavis: I can imagine.
Wallis: I also think, Tavis, that religion doesn't fit neatly in the categories of left and right. Uh, religion is best when it isn't ideologically predictable or loyally partisan, but prophetic faith cuts both ways, left and right. So a serious conversation will make both parties feel a little uncomfortable. So I don't want to help Democrats get religious language--a few bible verses--that's not interesting to me, but how do we get the nation to get religion, if you will, on the biggest issues, like 3 billion people living on $2.00 a day or a silent tsunami taking the lives of 30,000 children each and every day? Those are the big issues closest to God's heart, so Democrats and Republicans and all of us gotta get religion on those topics, I think.
Tavis: Again, before I get to what the right gets wrong and what the left doesn't get, tell me how the whole thing got turned upside down. What I'm getting at here is how did the whole conversation--left or right--get so skewed to begin with?
Wallis: Well, you know, neither Party gets it right, and it's become partisan. Here's the thing: religion and values shouldn't be wedges and weapons that divide us, but bridges that bring us together. They ought to bring us together across hostile, political, cultural dividing lines. You find common ground by moving to higher ground. I mean, Dr. King did that best, you know? A bible in one hand, the Constitution in the other. And Baptists were welcome like him, but Catholics and Jews and Muslims. Everybody came, and it was a moral discourse on politics. The country--this book tour is convincing me--the country is hungry for a new moral discourse on politics. And young people--I'm signing books for 12- and 13-year-olds who are coming up with these conversations. So it isn't left and right, it isn't a part--we get Republicans and Democrats now, evangelicals and Catholics and rabbis and e-moms. It's a really exciting conversation the nation is very eager to have.
Tavis: I guess what concerns me, though, is, and we've had this conversation a number of times, and in our conversations which I really appreciate because I happen to believe as we sit here in Black History Month that Dr. King is perhaps the greatest American we've ever produced--that's my point of view on it.
Wallis: It's my point of view, too.
Tavis: Um, and so I respect and revere your admiration and reverence for Dr. King. The point, though, is that King was able to do exactly what you just suggested he did, but he did it--you know where I'm going with this--he did it outside of the political sphere. He challenged the body politic, but he did it from the outside, and what you're talking about is politics that have been--that's been taken--the parties have taken the reins on this discourse.
Wallis: And that's why--uh, the point I make in the book is that what changes history are social movements, and the best ones have a spiritual foundation. Look at our history. The abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, child labor laws, civil rights, you know? So, this book is not about Democrats and Republicans, it's about all of us joining a movement, a movement of faith, a movement of conscience on the biggest issues of our time. That movement will change politics on the inside only if we start by building on the outside. That's exactly right, and that's why the Democrat/Republican thing is the media's interest. My interest is getting all these people coming to these book events and a thousand people in pouring rain in Los Angeles--meaning somebody's interested--I want them to sign up--I do altar calls almost--e-mail altar calls. Sign up and become a part of something that could really change our neighborhoods, our nation, and our world.
Tavis: Let me take you back. When the Democrats called you to Washington to speak to them post-election 2004 and asked you or gave you a platform at least to tell them what they--the left--did not get, what did you tell them?
Wallis: I said they have to reframe policy issues in a values context.
Tavis: What does that mean?
Wallis: That means, like, take the budget debate. Say a budget is a moral document. It reflects the priorities and values of a family, of a city, of a church, of a nation, so let's do a values audit of this budget. Who suffers, who benefits, who will bear the brunt of fiscal responsibility and deficit reduction, those most able to or those least able to? Let's see if its values, the budget, square with the values of the American people. So, reframe issues in a values context. Two, reconnect the constituencies that you're disconnected from. Listen to people who aren't listening to you.
Tavis: OK, I'm confused now. I was with you until you made that first point. If you're going to reframe the budget debate in terms of a values conversation, one could argue then that President Bush ought not be succeeding. Here's a guy who, you know, was very much unashamed and unabashed about putting his faith out, where John Kerry was a little more reticent, and you're telling me that this president's budget has been squared away, and all the support he's gotten from these evangelicals on the right, you're telling me that they have squared and they stand squarely behind this president on a budget that's passed the values test?
Wallis: I'm saying this budget won't pass the values test.
Tavis: I understand. That's my point. He gets away with that, though.
Wallis: He gets away with it because the moral values get restricted to gay marriage and abortion, and they don't get applied to the budget. And I want to say, "Mr. President, a budget is a moral document, so I want to have a moral values conversation about the budget." Democrats, if they don't do that, they get stuck into a corner of being the ones in favor of, you know, government spending and opposing tax relief and all the rest. They should be proactive and say, "Let's have a moral values conversation." And if we do that--let me just say, I'm an evangelical Christian. A budget that reaps a whirlwind of benefit for the wealthy while slashing effective programs for low-income families is a budget that does not square with my understanding of biblical priorities. Jesus said, "As you've done to the least of these, you've done to me."
Tavis: Let me ask you then why--just a few seconds here--why the left, then, is so afraid to say that word--G-o-d--in the public square.
Wallis: I think a party that was once vitally connected to a civil rights movement led by black churches has allowed itself to drift and wander away and become more secular. Now, I believe in separation of church and state. I do. That doesn't mean the segregation or the banishing of moral values and religious language from public life. I mean, we have to do it in a way that's welcoming, including, inviting, open. Everybody's invited, religious or not. This is a moral discourse we all gotta be part of. The Democrats can't concede the territory any longer of values and religion to the right 'cause then they define it in partisan ways that is bad for everybody.
Tavis: The book is 'God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It.' It is a new vision for faith and politics in America. It is written by 'New York Times' best-selling author now Jim Wallis. His web site, by the way, is Sojo.net. S-o-j-o. Sojo.net. Jim, nice to have you on.
Wallis: Good to see you, my friend.
Tavis: My pleasure. Up next on this program, the great actress Cicely Tyson. Stay with us.
Back to February 25, 2005