E-mail a friendRoderick Jackson
airdate April 5, 2005
A recent Supreme Court Title IX ruling giving him the right to sue for being fired has made Roderick Jackson a champion of gender equity. In '99, Jackson started coaching the girls' basketball team at Ensley High in Birmingham, AL. After complaining about the disparities between the girls' and boys' teams, he was let go as coach. He sued, under the landmark Title IX law, but lower federal courts ruled against him. Jackson recently accepted an award from the National Women's Law Center, which represented him in court.
Roderick Jackson
Tavis: Roderick Jackson was a popular girls high school basketball coach in Birmingham, Alabama, until he was fired from his coaching job back in 2001. No reason was given but it became clear Coach Jackson was dismissed because he complained that his girls' team was not receiving the same treatment as the boys. His case made it all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, and last week the court ruled that he does have the right to sue for being fired. Roderick Jackson joins us tonight from Birmingham. Coach, nice to have you on, sir.
Roderick Jackson: Thank you for having me.
Tavis: Let me start by saying congratulations, first of all.
Jackson: Appreciate it.
Tavis: Where were you when you heard the news?
Jackson: I was in class. I'm teaching health right now, and I was up walking around, we were talking, and I got a call from a local media person, actually, and it kind of took my breath away.
Tavis: Wow. So what did you think, once you got your breath back...since it took your breath away...once you got your breath back, what did you make of what the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled?
Jackson: Well, I think, uh, they agreed with our position that if you prohibit discrimination you prohibit retaliation. I mean, a no-brainer. You can't separate the two.
Tavis: Wow. Um, take me back to the incident that started this whole process, which was your complaining that your girls' team was quite frankly being "playa-hated" on, as your girls would say.
Jackson: Right. Uh, it started in 2000, actually, in the fall of 2000...I mean, the summer of 2000 when I complained about some problems I noticed. And in the fall of 2000 I felt like I had to go to the administration with the problems, you know, and I started putting things in writing...
Tavis: What...what were you complaining about?
Jackson: I was complaining about some inequities I saw, namely the girls weren't allowed to practice on the regulation 84 by 50-foot gymnasium where we play the games. We were playing in the old gym with the shabby floors, wooden backboards, bent rims, and the like. So that was one of the problems. Another problem that we had complained about was the expense accounts. The girls didn't have any access to the expense accounts, and that was a real biggie because we're charged for officials, we're charged for security, and charged for buses. So if you're not bringing anything in and being charged, then it don't take long to go in the red. Other things, the girls JV team was eliminated while the boys JV played on. The ice machine: we didn't have a key to the ice machine, had the padlock on it. Just a host of things.
Tavis: So you started complaining about these things and you felt you had to go a little higher up the chain of command. So tell me what you did then.
Jackson: Right. Being an ex-military guy I was taught about the chain of command. Also in the system I've been in there for 12 years. We were taught to work within the system and go up the chain of command. Someone with a level head would be at one of those levels, but to my surprise I went from the Principal...the school's Principal, the System Athletic Director, the Director of High Schools, all the way to the Deputy Superintendent of Instruction, which handles the day-to-day operation of the system. And all I was told, with the exception of one...we had one person stand on our side...but all I was told was that I was making problems for myself, play ball, and things like that.
Tavis: So eventually, and you tell me when eventually was, without being told why, you were fired. When did that...how long did that take place...your firing take place after you started complaining?
Jackson: Uh, didn't take but 5 months.
Tavis: Wow, that was quick.
Jackson: Actually...that was quick. I got an evaluation in the spring of 2001, and it was negative, and in fact all my evaluations became negative, as well as I received a certified letter at home and at the school saying that I had been terminated as the head girls basketball coach.
Tavis: Now you were also a schoolteacher, as you mentioned a moment ago. So that, because you're a tenured teacher, you kept your job...you kept your teaching job, right?
Jackson: Yes, sir.
Tavis: But they fired you from coaching?
Jackson: Correct. But you better bet conditions were unbearable. I mean, we really...you may be a tenured teacher, but they can make it uncomfortable for you.
Tavis: Well, I was about to go there, coach, so let's go there. Tell me what it must have been like...what was it like to be teaching still in a school where you had been fired from coaching because you clearly had caused some waves?
Jackson: Right. Well, I still stayed on and supported the girls from a distance, never taught them to be against the coaches that were there. Um, in fact my assistant, he moved up to the head spot and he's a good gentleman. But anyway, I stayed there to support them. Things that happened to me in particular were I was removed from drivers education...I don't know if you remember drivers education is one of the best courses you can teach in high school: small numbers, you get a chance to leave campus and go out and about the community, um, and now I'm teaching health with large numbers and younger students. So things like that began to happen, but I stayed and supported the girls throughout the ordeal.
Tavis: So tell me what's happened in the days since this Supreme Court ruling has come down. First of all, I'm just itching to know, is the Principal that didn't listen to you when this case happened still the Principal?
Jackson: No. She was transferred to another school.
Tavis: I just wondered what happened to her. OK, now that I got that out of the way, tell me what's happened at the school since this Supreme Court ruling has come down.
Jackson: Well, it's been a...it seems like the spirit of the young ladies has been uplifted.
Tavis: Right.
Jackson: The girls rightfully, when I told them about it-...I called 'em in and talked with about 6 of them at one time, and I saw the rest that afternoon at the end of school. And they were just elated, and they felt like it was a victory, and I really told 'em that it was not just a victory for us here at Ensley High School in Birmingham, but it was a victory for young ladies across the nation.
Tavis: Talk to me...to that point, talk to me about what you think this case means. What the Supreme Court essentially has said is you have the right to sue. We'll get, in a moment, to whether or not you, in fact, are going to sue, and what happens next, but tell me more about what you think it does mean that the Supreme Court at the very least said that you do, in fact, have a right to sue on behalf of the claims that you've raised.
Jackson: Well, as you know, Tavis, it was a landmark ruling because every Circuit except the 11th Circuit, which is the one that we're under, had said that a person could bring suit or a private cause of action based on their own injury. However, the 11th Circuit stood alone in that category, and the Supreme Court cleared it up. There was a split among the Circuits; they cleared it up saying yes, a person can bring a private cause of action for injury.
Tavis: All right, so now that you can sue, what's the coach gonna do?
Jackson: Well, right now we're currently talking with our attorneys. You know, I have some fine attorneys in Marsha Greenberger, with the National Women's Law Center, as well as Walter Dellinger, with O'Melveny and Myers, out of New York. And so I have to get with them, and we'll go from there. But I will say this, Tavis. We are hoping that we can go to the table, iron out our differences, and move forward. That's our hope.
Tavis: Do you feel...well, how do you feel? You feel like you've been, uh, exonerated? You feel like you've been proven right? What do you feel right now?
Jackson: Well, I feel that people see that I wasn't the bad guy after all. When you go around and you take on the entire system, you become labeled a troublemaker. A rabble-rouser, if you will. And people look at you a little bit different. So now, since that ruling come down last Tuesday, all of a sudden people are congratulating you and...
Tavis: You da man now! You da man now!
Jackson: And want to hug you. Right. But I'm still the same...I'm still the same guy that was...and will always be the same guy.
Tavis: Well, I'm glad you're the same guy, I'm glad you came on to talk to me, and I'm always glad to see a brother win, so, coach, congratulations.
Jackson: Thank you, Tavis.
Tavis: Talk to you again. Take care.
Jackson: All right.
Tavis: All right, up next on this program, actor David Duchovny from the "X-Files" now directing movies. A conversation with David in just a moment. Stay with us.
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