E-mail a friendJorge Ramos
airdate April 27, 2005
Jorge Ramos has been called one of the most influential Latinos in the U.S. For the past 14 years, he has anchored the evening newscast on the Univision network and consistently beats the other nets for top ratings in Miami, L.A. and Houston. A Mexican immigrant, Ramos has won 7 Emmys for excellence in journalism. His syndicated column appears in the U.S. and Latin America, and his daily radio commentary is broadcast to dozens of stations. Ramos has written several books, including Dying to Cross.
Jorge Ramos
Tavis: Given all the turmoil in network news of late with the departures of people like Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw, there is no such trouble at Univision. Longtime anchor Jorge Ramos remains the popular face and voice of the most watched Spanish-language network. In 2004, he was named one of the 10 most admired Latinos in all of America. He is also the author now of the new book "Dying to Cross: The Worst Immigrant Tragedy in American History." Jorge Ramos joins us tonight from Univision headquarters in Miami. Mr. Ramos, ¿como está?
Jorge Ramos: Muy bien. Thank you so much. Great to be here.
Tavis: That--That's all that I have, so I can't go any farther than that, but at least I got that out.
Ramos: Let's switch to English or to Spanglish if you want.
Tavis: All right. I prefer English for 500, please. Let me start--Before we get to this immigrant tragedy that we all recall from the news some years ago, let me start by asking, on the issue of immigration, period, who you blame--who's to blame for the immigration problem we have here in America?
Ramos: As long as you have a Mexican or people in El Salvador and Colombia making $5 a day and jobs for them in the United States in which they can make exactly the same amount of money in just 40 minutes or one hour, they're gonna keep on coming. So it has nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with the war against terrorism. It has everything to do with economics, with the law of supply and demand. As long as we have unemployed people in Latin America and jobs for them in the United States, they're going to keep on coming. So it has nothing to do with individuals. It has to do with both governments, the United States government and Mexican government.
Tavis: When you say that it has nothing to do with politics, it has to do with economics, you may be right about that. But politics are certainly played with this issue of immigration. Tell me, then, what most troubles you, what most bothers you about the way we play or engage in politics around the issue of immigration?
Ramos: The United States and Mexico have promised for many, many years that there was going to be an immigration agreement, but nothing has happened so far. Every single day, 1,000 immigrants...1,000 cross the borders successfully into the United States. So the border right now is completely out of control. The border has basically no law, and the immigrants know that. Now, what we don't want to see is more people dying on the border. Every single year, 400 immigrants die at the border. And I also understand the people that are saying, well, something has to be done right now. But what we need to do is first to provide legal status to the more than 11 million documented immigrants living in this country. If you don't want to do that for humanitarian or economic reasons, then we have to do it because of national security concerns. And also there has to be an immigration agreement between Mexico and the United States so we can have a more orderly flow of immigrants coming into this country. We need more immigrants in the United States. And also so we don't see more people dying at the border.
Tavis: This White House, this Bush Administration has supported legislation, as you know, that would deny driver's license to--driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, and this administration has also supported measures that would tighten asylum restrictions. Assess for me how you think this Bush White House is doing on the immigration issue.
Ramos: When President Bush was a candidate in the year 2004, he promised there was going to be a temporary workers' program for many of the documented immigrants living in this country. So far, we have not seen that, and so far, it does not seem that it is Mr. Bush's priority. Now, when it comes to driver licenses, we have to understand that these immigrants are not terrorists, these immigrants are not criminals, and that with or without driver licenses, they're going to keep on driving. Now, all immigrants in this country, both legal and undocumented, according to the National Academy of Sciences, contributed more than $10 billion to the economy of this country. And just recently, "The New York Times" reported--and I don't know if you read the article--that undocumented immigrants contribute and provide a surplus of $7 billion every single year to the Social Security Administration. So it is a great business to have immigrants in this country. What is not fair is to have them living not only as second- or third-class citizens, but sometimes to force them to live almost in--almost like slaves, especially in tomato and orange fields in California, Texas, and Florida.
Tavis: In your answer to my last question, actually the last two questions, something just hit me. I have used the phrase--By my count now, at least a couple of times, I've used the phrase "illegal immigrants." And I mean nothing by it. I'm getting to that. I've used the phrase "illegal immigrants," by my count, a couple times, and I mean nothing by it. It's just a phrase I use, I guess. I've heard you respond to my questions by saying, "undocumented workers." Give me an education here. Why do you say, "Undocumented"? Why do I say, "Illegal"?
Ramos: By saying illegal, many people are assuming that we are talking about criminals and that we are talking about terrorists. And, well, people are saying, "Well, they broke the law, so they are illegals." What I'm saying is that they are simply undocumented immigrants in this country, because again, they are not terrorists, and we need more immigrants like them here in the United States. I mean, we need immigrants to maintain inflation under control. We need immigrants to take the jobs that no American wants to take. I mean, I visited the tomato fields of Immokalee, Florida, just recently, and I saw hundreds and hundreds of workers, undocumented workers, and I did not see a single--a single American citizen. We need more immigrants to pay for the Social Security for a rapidly aging population, and we need more immigrants, quite frankly, just to continue the expansion, the economic expansion of the United States as a superpower. So for me and for many people, they are simply undocumented immigrants in the process of becoming legal residents. They are not illegal aliens, not in my book.
Tavis: OK. Let's talk about this new book "Dying to Cross: The Worst Immigrant Tragedy in American History." For those who don't recall what happened here and what we are referring to, take it away.
Ramos: About two years ago, there were 73 people who crossed the border between Mexico and the United States. And people do not recognize that there are two borders: one, the legal, physical one between Mexico and the United States; but there is a second border patrolled by the new I.N.S. in between 60 or 100 miles within U.S. territory. The fact is these 73 immigrants were stuck inside a trailer truck going from Harlingen, Texas, to Houston. But they were stuck for four hours inside a trailer without air conditioning, without water, and without the possibility of opening the doors from--from inside. When finally the driver opened the door, 17 people had died, and two more would have died later on that day in the hospital. This is the worst immigrant tragedy in the history of the United States, and part of the message of the book is that we have to remember this tragedy so it won't be repeated. Unfortunately, every single day--every single day at the border, one immigrant dies at the border.
Tavis: Talk to me about the smallest immigrant. Were there kids, uh--Were there kids found in this truck?
Ramos: There was one kid, one little boy called Marco Antonio, a 5-year-old. His parents were not in the best of situations. They were fighting. And the father--both of them live in Mexico City--decided to bring the boy to the border. They cross the border illegally without the knowledge of the mother. Both of them, the father and the boy, were inside the trailer truck. And the mother, in the worst situation I can imagine, learned about the death of his child on TV. Marco Antonio shouldn't have been there. But this tells you the desperation of many immigrants who see the United States as their only economic alternative. I think that hunger is stronger than fear. And the death of Marco Antonio, a 5-year-old boy, demonstrates exactly that.
Tavis: What happened with those persons who were prosecuted for being a part of the deaths of these undocumented workers?
Ramos: 40 people were involved, accused, charged, and detained in this operation. However, they are not the only ones responsible in this tragedy. The Mexican government is also responsible because they haven't been able to provide good-paying jobs for Mexicans for the last seven decades. And also--I have to say this--the U.S. government is responsible because their immigration policy forces immigrants--And they've been doing that for the last 10 years. It forces immigrants to cross through more dangerous routes, through deserts, through mountains, so the coyotes, the guides of these immigrants--they're called coyotes--they are not the only ones responsible. The Mexican government and the U.S. government, they're also responsible for those deaths.
Tavis: In about 20 seconds--I hate to do this to you--In 20 seconds, tell me what the first step is into--into solving this problem.
Ramos: Two things. We have to provide legal status to the 11 million undocumented immigrants living in this country. And also, there has to be an immigration agreement between Mexico and the United States. Everything part of comprehensive immigration reform, we need that right away. But nothing is happening in Washington.
Tavis: He is Jorge Ramos, the anchor on Univision, the most watched Spanish-language network in the world. The new book is "Dying to Cross: The Worst Immigrant Tragedy in American History." Mr. Ramos, thanks for coming on the program. Next time we talk, I'll know more Spanish words.
Ramos: Gracias, Tavis.
Tavis: Thank you, sir. Up next, director John Sayles. Stay with us.
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