E-mail a friendDavid Ayón
airdate May 23, 2005
David Ayón is a political analyst and writer. He's also a Senior Research Associate at Loyola Marymount University's Center of the Study of Los Angeles, which promotes research on Los Angeles in order to better understand urban America. Ayón has been an elections analyst, consultant and special producer for Spanish-language TV news coverage of every electoral cycle since '92. He also contributes essays on Latino politics and on Mexico to the Op-Ed pages of the Los Angeles Times.
David Ayón
Tavis: David Ayón is a respected political analyst who specializes in Mexican politics and U.S.-Mexico relations. He currently serves as a senior research associate at Center for the Study of Los Angeles. He is also in the process of writing a book as we speak about the presidency of Vicente Fox. Well, not as we speak, but I'm sure you'll get back to that when we're done speaking. David, nice to see you.
David Ayón: Pleasure to be here Tavis.
Tavis: I'm glad to have you on. So you know, we all know yesterday Vicente Fox was on the Jesse Jackson--Reverend Jesse Jackson's radio show. The reverend asked for an apology, as he's done a couple times now. Vicente Fox did not apologize. Earlier today, Reverend Al Sharpton when to Mexico City to meet with President Fox to demand--as he said, to demand an apology. Before I get into whether or not he should in fact apologize for this or have apologized for this, let me put this statement up on the screen for those who have heard about the story, but haven't actually seen the exact quote. The president said--and I quote, "There is no doubt that Mexican men and women, full of dignity, drive and capacity for work, are doing the jobs that not even blacks want to do there, in the United States." That's the quote that got this furor started some days ago. Racist comment, or was he misunderstood?
Ayón: I think there's no doubt that this is a racist comment. I think there are several things that explain it. Partly that, uh, President Fox is given, actually, to a certain amount of foot-in-mouth disease. He's made several faux pas and gaffes. And there's also frustration over the fact that he's not been able to get an immigration agreement with the United States. Beyond that, there's actually a well of national embarrassment and shame over the fact that so many Mexicans are not able to find opportunities in Mexico and find themselves forced to come and take any job they can in the United States. But underneath all of those factors, there is the issue of racism in Mexico and in Latin America, and I think this reflected that racism.
Tavis: What is this--if you call it racist, and obviously you do--what is this statement, this sentiment, Mexican versus black, rooted in from his perspective? I know domestically that black-brown tension that is on display in the inner city here in L.A. with kids fighting in school and other places around the country, but in Mexico, what is the sentiment behind that kind of expression?
Ayón: Well, I don't think--And I think we often mix different kinds of racism, especially racist attitudes and practices with racial hatred, and racial hatred is part of racism, but that's not the sum total of it. I don't think that it's racial hatred or hostility that's in play here. What it referred to is--You could even say it's almost a colonial mentality, that there are better and lesser jobs, there is better and less desirable work, and there are superior and inferior people that correspond to different kinds of work. So that's what he's referring to in that statement when he says not even blacks would do these jobs that Mexicans are taking in the United States. He's not being critical of the racial division of labor. He's assuming it as a fact, and that's what's problematic about the statement.
Tavis: Let me take the devil's side. This is gonna be--This will be strange to viewers, seeing a Mexican chastising Mr. Fox and calling his comments racist and an African American, for the sake of argument--just for the sake of argument--taking the opposite side. Um, why can't I justify that statement if I'm Vicente Fox? Indeed there are certain jobs that many Mexican immigrants take that African Americans do not want. He was only trying to make the case that Mexicans want, in fact, to work, they're not afraid of hard work. He was trying to make the case for an immigration policy with Mexico. If I take him at his word--I don't know the guy, but if I take him at his word that he didn't mean to slight black folk, he was just trying to make the case that "Mexicans want to work hard, and we need a good immigration through the country, so charge it to my head, not to my heart, I didn't mean anything by that."
Ayón: And I think it's perfectly understandable and acceptable that there's no hostility behind it, but what there is behind it is that, unlike a very common statement that's made many times without any controversy--President Bush has made it many times--that Mexicans and other immigrants are taking jobs in the United States that no American wants to take. Well, that's not what President Fox said, unfortunately. He made a racial distinction. He made a racially specific distinction that not even blacks want to take. And as I say, this refers to a racial division of labor, the expectation that there are people who ought to, in your society--and let me just put it not because this is the way I think, but I think this is what it reflects, that even in your divided society, not even your outcasts will take these jobs that our people are taking. That's what he was alluding to, and I think to allude to it uncritically is a reflection, an uncritical reflection of racist.
Tavis: How do you read then that he, after being asked by Sharpton, being asked by Jackson, has found a way to say he regrets it, but not apparently officially apologize for it?
Ayón: Well, he's refusing to apologize. He's stating these regrets, and in a way, Reverend Jesse Jackson has given him a good deal of cover in this. In fact, it has been widely reported, misreported that President Fox or that the Mexican government apologized for this, but they have explicitly denied that there was any apology, that any apology was called for, or that it would be forthcoming. Now, it'd be hard to and it would be useful to try figure this out, but it would be hard to tell for sure what it is in the calculation that Jesse Jackson is making, whether it's better to declare victory and cut a deal, and the deal here is not a bad one, in the sense that he wants to have African-Americans at the table to discuss immigration reform, and a lot of people, including African Americans, have been shut out of any discussion of immigration reform which is on the table here, but that is a questionable deal if the Mexican government continues to insist that no apology is called for.
Tavis: Let me ask you right quick here, we sit in L.A. right now, where we have a new mayor-elect, Antonio Villaraigosa, elected with the strong support of African Americans, so we have shown the world, the nation how the black and brown coalition can work at its best. What might something like this long-term do for the relations between black and browns in this country?
Ayón: Well, one thing that we can say is already positive that's come out of it, I think, in fact, that Jesse Jackson did the right thing to go to Mexico and to enter into the dialogue, and he took the head of MALDEF, of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund with him. I think, unfortunately they didn't make a joint statement before going down. That's what we haven't seen, a joint statement by African American and Latino leaders regarding this comment by President Fox and a joint demand for an apology. But the fact that they're working together and they've announced a coalition that's gonna discuss this and other issues together, that's very positive. And just as you say, we have a lot to protect here, and that is these leaders from these two communities have a lot of political management work to do in this and in many other communities in the face of demographic change that results in both social and political challenges.
Tavis: David, nice to have you on.
Ayón: My pleasure, Tavis.
Tavis: Glad to talk to you about it. Speaking of racial politics, up next, the former South African archbishop, from South Africa, Desmond Tutu. Stay with us.
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