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Tavis: In 1964, David Dennis was a civil rights activist in Mississippi, working to organize voter registration drives. On June 21, 41 years ago this week, Dennis and three other civil rights workers were all planning to inspect a black church that had been fire-bombed. Due to a bout with bronchitis, David Dennis could not join the other three, and by midnight, his three friends had been brutally murdered in one of the most gruesome incidents of the civil rights era. Yesterday a former Klansman, Edgar Ray Killen, was convicted of manslaughter for those deaths. For David Dennis and for many others, I suspect, it was a verdict that was welcome but certainly long overdue. Mr. Dennis, when I say I'm glad to have you here, I mean that in more ways than one.

David Dennis: It's my pleasure to be here.

Tavis: Glad to have you. Is justice delayed justice denied?

Dennis: I think so in more ways than one. Not only just in terms of Edgar Ray Killen, but I think that the conviction of Edgar Ray Killen brings to closure to some issues around the deaths in regards to their families and close friends in terms of personal relationships, but it doesn't bring closure to the issues. Justice has not been done in terms of really focusing and exposing the atrocities that were existing during that time and which still exist in this country. What I mean by that is that Edgar Ray Killen didn't do this by himself. According to reports from the Sovereign Commission--the Sovereign Commission was like a little CIA group in the state of Mississippi during that particular time, whereby they actually investigated everyone who was involved with the civil rights movement and is part of or connected with the Klan and other officials in the state. But those reports now, the records are made public, and in those records, it shows how there was a conspiracy in the state involving political officials, law enforcement officers, businessmen and others across the state of Mississippi, who had organized an effort to deter black people from exercising their constitutional right to vote, and then to do whatever was necessary to stop that, including acts of terrorism. People were shot, killed, beaten. Over 200 churches were burned during that period of time. And even during the period of time Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner were missing, they were finding other bodies and no investigation's been done about that.

Tavis: You just said something very important. Nobody talks about that. I mean, it is a good thing for this country, I think, and for the state of Mississippi, where I was born, that there is some closure on this, but to your point, you know, you close on a house, you don't close ever on the loss of a loved one. That said, nobody ever talks about those other bodies that were found while they were looking for these three young men.

Dennis: Correct, and I think that is a big issue. I think if you really want to talk about healing the wounds and reconciliation, you've got to really expose all the wounds and put it on the table so we can address that. The reason why it's necessary, I think, is because in order for us to sort of guarantee or assure the fact this would never happen again, we need to talk about what the extent this hatred and bigotry was and still is, to a large extent in the state of Mississippi. How you're going to clean it is by saying that this is really what happened and being very honest and truthful about it, and talk about what effects has it had on the black community in the state of Mississippi and across this country.

Tavis: Tell me what you think the value of something like that would be. There are a lot of folk who I suspect are glad to see Edgar Ray Killen get what he had coming, in part because it does provide some closure on this issue. What you're talking about doing is opening up more chapters, looking deeper, spending more time investigating, spending more time having a conversation about this, where there is, as you well know, a certain part of the population in Mississippi and beyond who want to put this behind us. So what's the value from your perspective even going deeper into this stuff?

Dennis: I think that the value of it is, is that we can learn from it. We can learn about what hatred can do to a people. I mean, black people in this country--I mean, the idea that what can happen here, what the black people in this country have never been considered to be children of this country. And I think that by looking at the depths of this and the necessity of this, for the need for us to be considered as children of this country. An example is how this hatred goes is that Mickey Schwerner, according to all reports that we have, an autopsy report, is he was shot one time in the heart. Killed immediately. So was Andrew Goodman. James Chaney was beaten and shot several times and his body mutilated at that the same time. So just to show, even under those acts of terrorism--

Tavis: And the distinction you're making, of course, is that James Chaney of the three happened to be the black American.

Dennis: Exactly right. Absolutely. And I think that when you look at it throughout this country, what has happened here is what discrimination has done. The way that it's affected our communities, I mean, with the poverty that exists. And Mississippi is one of the things we did accomplish is we have more black electoral officials in the state of Mississippi now than ever before, or any state in the country. But at the same time, we're still at the bottom, black people are, in terms of economic development and still at the bottom in terms of education. The education system in Mississippi is more segregated now than ever before. 90% of the students in the public school system in the state of Mississippi are African-Americans or students of color, so all the other kids are going someplace else. And if you look at what has happened in the education system there, how it has impacted the country, the same thing exists in the inner cities and rural areas throughout the United States.

Tavis: Let me stop you right quick and ask you, since you raised these. A couple questions here. One, since you raise these issues of the contemporary state of life for black folk in Mississippi now and you juxtaposed that against the time of one James Chaney and how he was maltreated even more so than the other two were, although they all died vicious deaths. I'm not trying to compare pain here, but to your point, they did beat him and shoot him, as opposed to just shooting him. What's the link between the two? Why do you talk about the state of life for black folk in Mississippi today in the context of a conversation about what happened back then? What's the linear line? What am I missing?

Dennis: The linear line is the fact is that the way it has not been changed that much in terms of the way people are treated.

Tavis: Got it.

Dennis: That is even in terms of death, black people are treated different or treated worse. The reason is because of the fact is that even in our constitution, we're not looking at black people as being human beings. And so throughout history, we have not been able to be treated equally. Then at this particular time, we talk about who are the children of the country and who the country embraces as their children and treat them as such? And black people have never been put into that context as being the true children of the country of the United States of America.

Tavis: Given that response, I wonder whether or not then it is your belief--I just want to ask a question here, and I may get in trouble for even asking it, but I'm curious as to what your response might be. I wonder whether or not it is your belief then that this investigation might not have been reopened. That the prosecution in Mississippi might not have been so dogged on getting Mr. Killen if all three victims had been black and not two non-black?

Dennis: I don't think it would have been a pursued as aggressively.

Tavis: You don't think so? Even though in Alabama they went after the men who killed the four little girls in the 16th Street Birmingham church.

Dennis: Yeah, but look what they did. They didn't go after the core of this whole piece to get to the bottom of it. In each case, they selected is some poor white person they can throw it on and make it look as if one person is involved with this and everybody being satisfied in the country that they got somebody. Killen, he was not by himself. So almost to bring closure, the fact is that we have arrested Killen. Black people in this country and the rest of the country cannot allow that to happen. Same goes for the United States cannot close the door just by catching Saddam Hussein. We can't close the door by talking about just arresting one particular person here. So I am saying is what you need to do is embrace the whole issue, expose here to say what did exist in terms of discrimination in this country. Because it's impacting us in all aspects, economically especially, and a barrier to our becoming free people in this country and first-class citizens, and how all discrimination now has impacted around the education system of the country. The public school system of this country happens to be one piece of racism that's causing us not to be able to exercise our rights as first class citizens. We talk about--we've just been going through a whole thing about "Brown versus Board of Education." My own opinion is that "Brown versus Board of Education" was a great case, but also, the only thing it did was to give us equal rights to the education system provided by this country. What has happened now, because of what they're doing to the public school system, which is now like number 20, 22 in the world, though we are the number one power, and most of the people in the public school system in most areas now are African-American students, especially in the southern states. So what we are talking about is the right, equal rights to an inadequate education system. So a lot of us are saying one of the things about equity, for us to be able to exercise our rights as first class citizens of this country, what we're going to have do is get a first class education. In order to do that, you have to change the education system. So we talk about the fact that quality education is what needs to be changed and redefined in this country.

Tavis: You're talking about education. I don't want to interrupt you, although I want to shift gears just slightly and get back to your personal story, which I haven't had a chance to get to yet. But you are talking so much about education now, and you are passionate about it because the work you do today is around educational issues.

Dennis: We think that's where we are right now in the new civil rights movement. The issue is around education. It's not new, but it's there. That is the next step, just as in the sixties we talked about the right to vote, today it's about education. For young people to be able to exercise the rights of first class citizenship, you are going to have to be able to get a first class education.

Tavis: To have access to an equal high quality education.

Dennis: No, a quality education. See that's a big issue of what is equal? Equal education is what--the quality of what the country offers. The country is offering to people in the public school system an inadequate education that's ranked number 20 or less in the whole world. What that means is we can't compete around the world. The poor white kids have been rescued out of that particular system. This began right after "Brown versus Board of Education." The Dixiecrats said let them have their education. So white kids moved out and left the public school education system to black kids.

Tavis: Let me shift gears and go to your personal story. I couldn't let this conversation come to a close--I know a lot of folk I'm sure are asking in their minds now more about your personal story. I started this program by suggesting that there were three of your friends who died that night. You were supposed to have been with them. You would have been the fourth. And so when I welcomed to you this program, I mean that sincerely. Tell me about that night, about the bronchitis you came down with that night. Tell me what happened on that night 41 years ago?

Dennis: Well, I was ill coming into that weekend period, so I did not go to Oxford for the training of the thousand students. I stayed behind as we had to bring closure to some of the housing issues we had for all of the kids and some of the last-minute things had to be done. I got a viral infection, a bronchial infection at that time. So people felt that I shouldn't go, that I should get a little rest. The doctor, too, wanted me to do that, so I did not take that trip. I met with Chaney and Goodman. That was my first time meeting Goodman, because that was his first day in the state of Mississippi. So they stopped by the COFO office, which is located on the corner of Lynch and Rose Street in Jackson, Mississippi, where I was at the time. So that evening they went on to Meridian where the base was, the COFO office there was based in Meridian, where Mickey Schwerner and Rita and the others worked. I went back home to spend a couple of days at home, which is Shreveport, Louisiana, to get some mother's care and stuff. So that next day, that evening at about 4:30, I received a call they had not reported in. They were scheduled to report in to the Meridian office at 4:00 P.M. So I was very concerned about that because Mickey and James Chaney, knowing where they were going, we always reported in timely because we knew the danger in the area. So I figured then something was going wrong. So we immediately began to make contacts. I made contact with the FBI office and the Justice Department and then had a car dispatched over to the area from Meridian. After that, about 6:30 or 7:00, after checking everything in, they said they weren't at the jail. I told my mother, I think we lost some of the people there.

Tavis: Let me stop. So you felt rather immediately within 2 ½ hours of them not reporting in and not being found by any of the authorities, you felt in your spirit immediately they had perished.

Dennis: Yeah. Something was wrong. Because I knew them, you know, and knew how they worked, so they would have reported in.

Tavis: Tell me how common it was then, because I suspect it is the story of Chaney and Goodman and Schwerner that is probably best known throughout civil rights history with regard to the inner workings or the working relationship between black and white, even in the racist south, it is a wonderful metaphor--not even a metaphor...-a wonderful story about persons whose don't look like us, who were just as committed as African-Americans were then to making things right in the south and around this country. Tell me how common it was for two white guys like, you know, Schwerner and Goodman to be hanging out in Mississippi doing this kind of work. Was that a common occurrence or were these two guys rather unusual?

Dennis: That was an unusual thing, but not during that year. I mean, back in 1963 we began to bring in more white kids, young people to work in the movement with us, the core of students.

Tavis: Now, you say bring in. Were you bringing them in or were these white kids who wanted to be a part of it? Or a combination?

Dennis: These were kids who really wanted to be a part of it and volunteered to come in. So that brought us into a different ballgame here because we weren't getting--people were being beaten and shot at and everything else. We weren't

getting the attention about what was going on. So the issue was, how you do get this open about really all the atrocities going on there? So we began in 1963 being able to open the door to what we call America's children. And as they began to come into the south to work and became victims of some of those atrocities, then the press began to give more attention to these pieces. And I think that bringing in 1,000 kids, the attention was on Mississippi then because most of those kids were white kids coming in, what we called America's children.

Tavis: When America's children came into Mississippi and down south and started to do this kind of work, a few things. One, what it effective, what you all had planned? The reason why you had done this was to open it up to the media to get more people to talk about it by bringing in these white children. Was it effective? Was that strategy a good strategy?

Dennis: Yes, it was a very good strategy because what it did is it gave the space that we needed for the targeted population, which were the sharecroppers to have a voice. And so people began to listen to what they had to say. They gave us spaces where we made the challenges and the exposure to the Democratic party of what racism and discrimination was going on with that and took it to Atlantic City. It opened that door for people to see that. But more important than that is the sharecroppers had a voice for the first time. That came through the sharecropper Fannie Lou Hamer, who at the Credentials Committee spoke to the world and said she was sick and tired of being sick and tired. And President Johnson, who was so powerful, got up and immediately called for a press conference to get her off the air. It was just a little bit too late because the press picked it up again after that. But it was a sharecropper relating her nature who brought this country to its knees, saying you've got to recognize what's going on here.

Tavis: Let me ask you, once it was reported that these two white kids, Schwerner and Goodman, were missing, how did the other--we know how the media responded and reacted. How did the other white kids in the program respond? Did they pack up and head home?

Dennis: A few. Not many.

Tavis: Most of them stayed.

Dennis: Most of them stayed, but most of them came on down. See, the news came out, most of these kids were still in Oxford, Ohio being trained by us.

Tavis: So they're in Oxford, Ohio. but even after hearing the news, they still came on down?

Dennis: Right. And I think that what's really important about this is that the people who were there already, the civil rights workers and local people and America's children came down, really believed in democracy. This country missed a golden opportunity. And when this country turned its back on the people there, because they knew about the fact that it was just not Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner who were missing when their bodies were found, but there were other bodies being found during that time with the beatings and the shootings. And when the country turned its back on that and when the country also turned its back on the challenge of the Democratic party, everybody believed there was no way that this country could do that. When they did that, there was a lot of disillusionment among the America's children. They went back to the universities. The universities have never been the same. They began to really question the country's policy and the statement definition about democracy were. And so it became another issue here. I think it was a great opportunity for this country to embrace what was right and show the world what democracy really could be.

Tavis: The media that I mentioned a moment ago, the media has been all over this case this week. I mean, everywhere you look, you have read, heard, and seen about the trial of Mr. Killen, and the conviction of Mr. Killen, never mind it being manslaughter and not murder. That story's been everywhere. Indeed, we are spending our entire show talking to you tonight about your connection, your very close connection to this story. Take me back 41 years ago and tell me what you recall about how the media handled this story when it was learned that these three young men were missing. How did the media respond back then?

Dennis: The media responded to it, I think, in terms of the fact I that, you know, the disbelief there were going to be two white kids who had been murdered. They did not go after the real stories behind this, why they were there, the different type activities that were going on. The approach was exposing the problems in terms of education, the political issues and economic issues that existed. You had freedom schools we had going on, we had trainings around economic development and stuff. Then you had also the whole political piece and the organized Freedom Democratic Society.

Tavis: The media didn't go that deep into it. They spend most of their time talking about the disappearance of these two white guys.

Dennis: Exactly, but on top of that is the media knew about these other missing bodies, or bodies being found, rather. And so it was really interesting when the press would contact--my personal experience with the press was, we just got word they found a body or we just got word they found two bodies. By the time they found three bodies from the students, who were wearing our COFO T-shirts who was decapitated. And so they said, we found them. They think we found one of the civil rights workers missing or we found two or whatever it is. And then when they found out they weren't them, they would return they and say, well, that wasn't them. Maybe they're still around. Bam, go on with this, And so it was also happening just with people in this country, saying, thank God it wasn't them. You know, not understanding. They were finding bodies in the state of Mississippi who had been killed as a result of this terrorism that was going on at that time.

Tavis: Tell me how, and you intimated at this earlier, but I want to go a little deeper now. Tell me how the experience of knowing, the specific experience of knowing that you were supposed to have been with them and could have been the fourth person murdered that night with that crew, tell me how that experience has profoundly impacted the way you have lived your life?

Dennis: Well, I think that, first of all, it's something you never forget because I've never thought about it in terms of the fact is I could have been a fourth person killed. What's always been in my head is if I had gone, maybe I could have done something and prevented it from ever happening, just like changing history and stuff. What you never get out of your head is the fact is that they were there because the fact is I had said this is where you ought to work when Mickey and them came down. So they were there because I did that.

Tavis: You feel guilty because of that?

Dennis: Yes. I question my judgment all the time about this. You live with this and it haunts you because of the fact you want to know--but then during that particular time, it was live war, you know. I'll never forget some others, there was some really hard areas. But I remember one incident is we sent people over to Nachez, Mississippi to get some affidavits for people who had not been allowed to vote to go through the Justice Department. They went in, and their car was shot up, they came back. And when they got back to the office, this car was shot up and stuff is, and they had a little restaurant next door. They went to get coffee and stuff. I went there and the kids were just shaking. They were young like I was and stuff. And I wanted to know, did you get the affidavits? They said no. I said, OK, when you finish your coffee, get something to eat, here are the keys to the...another car. I need them tonight. And one of the guys stopped me, and said are you crazy? What's wrong with you? So what I had gotten in that time is it's like a war. You just go, and you've got to be done. And I began to realize what this is doing to me as an individual, as a person. It impacted my life in a lot of different ways because of the fact being able to understand more about the depth of commitment. I had two experiences of mine doing that. One was that, and one was when I first got involved in the freedom riders and discussion with Dr. King and them.

Tavis: Well, you mentioned commitment, and I certainly want to thank you for first of all, agreeing to come sit with me for this half-hour. I appreciate it. I want to thank you for your courage your conviction and for your commitment. I am indeed happy that you're still around to share this part of history to empower people with the information. So thank you so much.

Dennis: Thank you.

Tavis: I'm glad to have you here. That's our show for tonight. You can catch me on PRI public radio this weekend. See you back here next time. Thanks for watching and keep the faith.