MONDAY
E-mail a friendPenny Marshall
airdate July 1, 2005
The hit sitcom Laverne & Shirley not only made Penny Marshall a household name, it also launched her career behind the camera. She's the first female director of a film that grossed over $100 million domestically (Big). Additional credits include Awakenings, The Preacher's Wife and A League of Their Own. Born into a show biz family, the Bronx native got a taste of performing in a movie her brother wrote and produced. Marshall makes her mark as a producer with two of this summer's most talked-about films, Cinderella Man and Bewitched.
Penny Marshall
Tavis: I'm pleased to welcome the prolific producer, director, and actor Penny Marshall to this program. Her terrific career in show business, of course, dates back to days on classic series like 'Laverne & Shirley,' followed by a directing career with films like 'Big,' 'A League of Their Own,' 'The Preacher's Wife,' 'Awakenings.' The list goes on and on and on. This summer, she's producing 2 high-profile projects, both in the top 10 this past weekend--both. I ain't mad at you, Penny Marshall. First up, 'Cinderella Man' with Russell Crowe and Renée Zellweger, and now 'Bewitched.' The comedy stars Will Ferrell and Nicole Kidman. Here now a scene from 'Bewitched.'
Tavis:
Penny Marshall: Well, they took a long time to get out.
Tavis:
Marshall: My company bought Parkway Productions, bought Ted Bessell, actually, who is part of my company, went after Sol Saks, I believe, and begged him and wanted to do 'Bewitched.' This was in 1990. So Sony bought the rights from Parkway in 1990. It's what, 2005?
Tavis:
Marshall: It took a little while.
Tavis: That's a lot of begging.
Marshall: Well, he--unfortunately, Ted died in 1996 of a bad medical mistake, and Doug Wick, who is the other producer as well as Lucy Fisher, who was president of Sony at the time. I was busy, you know, so I said, "Doug, wanna go in halvsies with me on this 'cause I don't have time, and let's keep Ted's memory alive 'cause he was passionate about doing ‘Bewitched' as a love story.' And so Doug took over, and that was '96. So now it's 9 years later, and they come out, you know. So that's the story of 'Bewitched.' I mean, Doug and Lucy, you know, were producers, and I moved over.
Tavis: So you didn't plan for both 'Cinderella Man' and 'Bewitched' to be out at the same time. That was not part of the plan.
Marshall: No. 1990 was 'Bewitched.' 1996 was 'Cinderella Man,' when Cliff Hollingsworth came to me with a spec script called 'Cinderella Man' 'cause he felt I would take care of the Braddock family and treat them fairly. And so I was at Universal then. And so I liked the story. I took all the boxing and put it over here 'cause that's somebody else's job to teach someone how to box. I'm not gonna do it. And then we had to fix the story. You know, the characters--get more depth in the characters.
Mae Braddock: It's not that I'm not grateful or proud. I am. I'm so proud of you, but we got off easy when you broke that hand. We're back to even now.
John Braddock: Right. And 9 months from now, we're back in the same boat.
Mae: Baby, please. We just don't have anything left to risk.
John: Mae, Mae. There's still some juice in these legs, and I can still take a few. Baby, please. Just let me take him in the ring. At least I know who's hittin' me.
Tavis: Roger Ebert was on this program last week and said he loved 'Cinderella Man' and was disappointed that it had not done as well at the box office as he thought it might do, but he speculated that it wasn't because of the story, because he said it's a beautifully done--
Marshall: It's a winter movie.
Tavis: Is that what it is? You say, winter movie. He thought it was the title. He thought 'Cinderella Man' didn't relate with a bunch of guys who love boxing.
Marshall: You're in a depression. You're in the winter most of the movie. It belongs out in October.
Tavis: So why not put it out in October?
Marshall: Well, don't ask me. Don't--Ron and Brian Grazer fought for any time in the fall, but there's a slot. You know, things work the way--"We have a slot, ‘The Fugitive' spot." what does that mean?
Tavis: As a producer, does that make you--does that make you upset? I was gonna say something else on TV. Does that really--
Marshall: Oh, yeah.
Tavis: Does that really--you do all this hard work, and a movie doesn't peak because it's out at the wrong time.
Marshall: Now certain--'Bewitched' is a summer movie, and it comes out at the right time. I mean, I've had movies, they came out in the summer. 'A League of Their Own' came out in the summer. But 'Renaissance Man' belonged in September or March or anything. I'm not saying it's an Academy-worthy movie, but kids should be in school. It's about teaching. Then every English teacher would send their class to see it. Don't do it in the summer when kids aren't in school. "You have ‘The Dead Poets' spot." I don't care what spot. They'll say movies that have nothing to do with anything--"The Fugitive." Well, 'Renaissance Man,' what does that have to do with 'The Fugitive'? You know, connection.
Tavis: Let me ask you, what's behind all these remakes? I mean, is it just me, or are we seeing a lot of remakes of TV shows becoming movies? What's behind all this?
Marshall: I think no one has a thought in their--an original thought.
Tavis: No original thoughts left in Hollywood?
Marshall: Well, they're afraid of original thoughts. I don't think half the movies that I've directed or--I don't think, you know, Russell Crowe, thank goodness, wanted to do the movie in '96, '97, but he wasn't "Russell Crowe" yet. He had only done, I think, 'L.A. Confidential.' So he had to wait till he won a couple of Academy Awards and all that. Now he's bankable. You could have gotten him much cheaper back in '97. But, no, they wanted somebody else. And so thank God Russell remembered the project and really wanted to play this guy, and then Ron Howard, who I had a relationship with and Imagine came in, and they were gonna make it. Now, Ron and I know each other from 'Happy Days,' 'Laverne & Shirley' times, and I love Ron's movies, so I said, "Go," and he went to Canada to shoot. I ain't goin' to Canada. And so I just wished him luck. I read versions of the script, and I saw a cut of the movie beforehand, and I said, "Oh, I don't know." and luckily Cheryl his wife and I agreed on a lot of things. And I thought he did a wonderful job, and it's a great movie, and it's a great story.
Tavis: You mention 'Laverne & Shirley,' and since you went there first, I'll follow your lead on this.
Marshall: Oh, well...
Tavis: So, when you look back on 'Laverne & Shirley'--I promise, just one 'Laverne & Shirley' question. Just one question. Can I get one in?
Marshall: You could ask me anything.
Tavis: When you look back on 'Laverne & Shirley' all of these years later, you think what?
Marshall: That I was so much younger and thinner then.
Shirley: So, you get a date for tomorrow night yet?
Laverne: Oh, yeah. A real hunk.
Shirley: Who is he?
Laverne: Well, I met him on an escalator. I was goin' up, and he was comin' down, so I jumped over the rail.
Shirley: More of the old DeFazio charm, eh?
Laverne: Yeah.
Shirley: Thanks for the keys. I'm gonna go home. I got this new secret facial mask. I mixed some up. It's made out of honey and oatmeal. You want me to mix you up some?
Laverne: No, I had that for breakfast.
Shirley: You ate my facial mask for breakfast? You ate a facial mask for breakfast?! Why would you want to eat a facial mask?
Laverne: It was good.
Marshall: I thank the Lord for 'Laverne & Shirley' because, I don't know, people--I mean, I'm much older. You know, I was just 6 when I did the show, and I'll be out with my glasses and that thing, you know--baseball cap on in a car, and people will still yell, "Hey, Laverne!" and I think I look a little different and older, but they seem to--I mean, I could get anywhere from that show. I mean, it's like I'm safe in the ‘hood.
Tavis: A brother can't beat down Laverne or Shirley.
Marshall: No. I think we were the closest thing to black people at that time.
Tavis: Right.
Marshall: 'Cause we were struggling. We were trying to make a living...and I think that was their--or they liked us somehow. I don't know.
Tavis: The brothers also like you 'cause you're a big Lakers fan, too.
Marshall: I'm a big basketball fan.
Tavis: Speaking of the Lakers, 2 things. One, what did you think when Shaq and the Heat did not make it to the finals? Were you cheering about that because he left, or were you, like, "Man, I wanted--" what were you thinking when Shaq didn't make it to the finals?
Marshall: Well, I think he was injured...
Tavis: Oh, yeah.
Marshall: Number one. So he couldn't, you know. He had a hurt--
Tavis: Would you have liked to have seen him make the finals, even though he deserted your beloved L.A. Lakers? 'Cause Kobe wasn't in it--nowhere near it.
Marshall: He just graduated, so I'm not gonna put Shaq down. I like Shaq, and I like Shaunie. I think a lot of the people involved are acting like babies. And I think it would have been better rated, but I like San Antonio. And Detroit I don't know, except for Rasheed Wallace, who I love. 'Cause he was at Portland, you know.
Tavis: 'Sheed. Yeah.
Marshall: 'Sheed. My man. But they trade people so often, so it's very difficult...
Tavis: All right, so Jackson's back. Phil Jackson's back. You happy about this? You expect anything big from this?
Marshall: What's gonna happen? I mean...
Tavis: How'd you become such a basketball lover?
Marshall: Well, I was always--I didn't like basketball when I was younger. I played it, you know, as a kid. We did have P.E. in school still.
Tavis: Back then, yeah.
Marshall: Back then. No, no, no. No music, no exercise. I don't know what they're doing. But I was a Yankee fan. I was born in the Bronx...die-hard Yankee fan. I just took my grandson to New York for the 'Bewitched' premiere and to go to the Yankee game so he could meet Jeter and A-Rod and Joe Torre, who I love. And Tino's back!
Tavis: Tino's back. Yeah.
Marshall: And so Jason Giambi signed the ball, 'cause he got a foul ball. And so it was very sweet, and they were all very nice guys. At least some of them have been there for a while. And then when--I married a football player in college, so I knew everything about the "I" formation. I did my official speech in college on that. 7-man sled, the carryover, patty cake--I knew all this stuff. I'd cry when they lost. And then, when I came out here, I wasn't into any sport, and then basketball seemed to be the thing to go to, and that--that was luckily during the Showtime years, you know? So you couldn't not like that. Pat Riley was there. He was gorgeous. What's not to like?
Tavis: Let me shift gears here, if I can, and ask you what you--do you think anymore these days, or have you ever thought about the impact that you have had in this industry as a woman? I mean, people talk about it, but I wonder whether you--does Penny Marshall ever think about that, concentrate on that, make decisions as a result of that? Does it matter to you, or are you just a filmmaker and a producer and a director?
Marshall: I didn't ask for this job. I mean, I wanted to act, I guess. You know, after I got divorced from the football thing and all that. I had a daughter, and I came out here, and my brother was--my brother. Thank god for my brother Garry.
Tavis: I've heard of Garry Marshall.
Marshall: Have you heard of Garry?
Tavis: Yeah.
Marshall: He, you know--I was in 'The Odd Couple.' I did some other stuff, but he got me my union card and all that because he thought maybe I'd like it. I had done some little theater in Albuquerque where I live. Don't--it's a whole 'nother life. And so I was just goin' where anyone asked me to. And after 'Laverne & Shirley' ended, you know, I went off with a guy I was dating. We rode a motorcycle through Europe. I wasn't looking for anything. I did an off-Broadway play, 'cause I like nights better than mornings. I'm not a morning person. And then 3-camera television you shoot at night. One night a week. Great. In front of an audience, which feeds you. Then I bought an apartment in New York, and I was going home to get some winter clothes, and they asked me if I'd take over 'Jumpin' Jack Flash' 'cause they saw me have dinner with Whoopi in New York. I swear it's because of that. I never knocked on anyone's door and said, "Please let me direct." you know, 'cause in television they were traffic cops. It was the writer/producers that were the power. 'Cause they could write and produce and change your lines...if you didn't. And so I asked my brother and Jim Brooks, and they said, "You got nothin' to lose." Larry Gordon and Joel Silver, when they were talking, asked me to take over this movie, and I said, "Well, I'll try." I was brave and fearless and stupid at the same time.
Tavis: You have to be to make a contribution to anything, I think.
Marshall: Yeah. I think, "OK. What do I got to lose?"
So I did that, and then 'Big' came next. And then I was afraid of doing a comedy. I found 'Awakenings,' which was a dead project. And that's what shocked them the most, I think, 'Awakenings.' 'Cause I was doing a drama. So I didn't ask to have this job. And it's a hard job. It's long and tedious and--I think my talent was good taste, and good taste in projects, whether it be 'Cinderella Man,' which I still think is a valid story. And I think Russell Crowe is a hell of an actor. You know, and that's what I wanted to do, and they didn't want me to do it. So it got done, so I figure I had good taste. And so I don't think of myself--I just think right now that, male or female, when you hit a certain age, they don't want you.
Tavis: Well, Penny, you were the first woman, though, to direct a movie that made $100 million.
Marshall: I remember when they said the budget was $18 million, for both 'Big' and 'Jumpin' Jack Flash.' I said, "$18 million? What are they doin' with it?" it wasn't goin' to me
Tavis: So let me ask you, what's the value, then? What's the greatest value--I was talking on my radio program not long ago with Adam Bellow, the son of Saul Bellow, who recently passed away. He's written a book called 'In Defense of Nepotism.' 'In Defense of Nepotism.' Fascinating book.
Marshall: Well, I do believe in nepotism.
Tavis: I'm sure you do believe in nepotism. Let me ask you, then, what's the value of having a brother who happens to be Garry Marshall? What's the greatest value of having somebody like that in the business?
Marshall: Well, he tells you, like, "Just finish it. Don't fall down. Just finish it." and he would drive by one night. I was shooting 'Jumpin' Jack Flash,' and it had to be finished by a certain hour in L.A. or wherever we were shooting. He said, "Just because you could do it doesn't mean they could do it." I said, "But it's so simple. All you gotta do is--" and he said, "Just because you can do it doesn't mean they can do it. Change the bit." I said, "But it's so easy!" "Change the bit." So, I mean, little things like that. You know, he's helping you, and he gives you ideas of what naturally has to happen. You know, some words don't fit in their mouth. They must be changed. If it doesn't sound right to your ear, say it in another--say it in English. Whatever term you use. My brother and I speak oddly. But he has been more than helpful, you know. And he'll look at my cut. You know, my first assemblage on 'Big,' which was a horrible first assemblage. And we're talking through it, and the editors..."These people don't know what is going on." We're doing wild lines. He was saying, "Hey, Mae, look out the window. Look what's--" we're doing counter dialogue if the scene isn't working. And I remember Howard Shore. I said, you know, "You can get out of it now if you don't want it." and 'Big' was the fourth movie out with the same premise--out that year. We were the last movie out. And that was the one that hit because I think I took it seriously, which I learned from my brother. If you're doing high concept, like, oh, what if you're a child and you make a wish and you--that's a high concept. Every kid, I think--male, female, whatever--says, "When I get big, I'm gonna..." so that's a universal concept. But when you have a high, magical thing, you must take it as seriously as possible. Whether it be 'Laverne & Shirley'--we needed that $5.00 for the rent, so we're gonna go break into this, or go to a costume ball or whatever. You have to really believe you need that. And I think that's what the difference was with 'Big' was that Tom was literally scared. He was literally confused. I mean honestly, you know. It wasn't tongue in cheek. It was honest. And when you have high concept, you must play it honestly. And so I learned a lot of that from my brother.
Tavis: Speaking of Garry, we talked about the nepotism issue, which, you said jokingly, but I'm sure, seriously, you defend nepotism, as do others who have benefited from it or understand it in the way you do. That said, though, what do you say to young persons who now--and I see them all across town--who want to be filmmakers? I mean, there's no one route to get there, obviously. You took your own journey. Everybody takes his or her own journey. What do you say to folk who want to be filmmakers? Not just actors, but filmmakers, producers.
Marshall: Shoot somethin'. I mean, there's a million cameras out there now. I mean, your telephone can shoot 15 seconds, I believe. I'm mechanically challenged. I'm not a big--big person. But I think it could shoot something. There's cameras that could shoot--I mean, it doesn't cost that much, this digital world. And you can make something...if you believe in this. I mean, Steven Spielberg, George Lucas, and Francis Coppola, all those guys are film school people. And so they went to film school to learn to direct. To learn to make their visions. But Steven always had a camera as a kid. And so we went and did it. With acting, you just gotta do whatever part. You can't act in a vacuum alone in your bathroom. You have to go to a class. You get to play anything in a class. Parts you're not right for. That's the only place you'll get to play 'em. And it doesn't--you know, you can do anything that doesn't compromise your morals. You know, they ask you to do this, and you say, oh, you don't do commercials because you want to be in movies, or TV actors can't be in movies. Well, that's all that in movies is TV actors now. There was a time when there was a definite line. But work's work.
Tavis: Speaking of commercials, did I read somewhere that one of the first things you did was a commercial where you played a woman that had dandruff?
Marshall: Yes, I did, with Farrah Fawcett, who didn't have dandruff.
Tavis: So you were the one who had the dandruff, and Farrah Fawcett was the one who...
Marshall: Had beautiful hair, and gave me the Head and Shoulders to use. Now, Farrah had just come out from Texas. She was a very sweet girl.
Tavis: This was before 'Charlie's Angels,' then?
Marshall: Oh, way before 'Charlie's Angels.' Before 'Odd Couple.' Before 'Laverne & Shirley.' And she had just come out, and we did this commercial together for Head and Shoulders. And then, as the years went on, you know, I was doing 'Laverne & Shirley,' she was doing 'Charlie's Angels.' We were doing 'Battle of the Network Stars.' We were all at ABC, and we would win every year. She was a good athlete. Great athlete. And then I'd see her, you know, after that poster came out. She goes, "They're making me something I'm not," 'cause she was just a girl from Texas. A beautiful girl with beautiful hair.
Tavis: Hey, it worked out for her.
Marshall: It worked out for her, but it can get you crazy. Gets you a little crazy. I watched Dave Chappelle's show from 2004 on Showtime, and he said, "Famous are a little strange." you know when he was going to take his kids to Disneyworld--which he only has 5 minutes a day, maybe, for his kids to begin with 'cause he's working all the time--and they come up and go, you know, "Hey, do the Rick James bit!" you know, in front of his kids.
Tavis: I hope that wasn't a self-fulfilling prophecy for Dave Chappelle, but I will leave that alone. Penny Marshall is a busy woman, and you got your pick. Go to the movie theater, watch 'Bewitched,' watch 'Cinderella Man.' Either way Penny gets paid.
Marshall: And go to basketball games.
Tavis: And go to basketball games. Nice to have you on the program.
Marshall: Nice to be here.
Tavis: All the best to you. That's our show for tonight. You can catch me on public radio this weekend and every weekend on P.R.I.--Public Radio International. Check your local listings. See you back here next time on PBS. Until then, thanks for watching and keep the faith.
Back to July 1, 2005