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Tavis: As we look at the changing face of baseball, 60 years after the signing of Jackie Roosevelt Robinson, I'm pleased to welcome Bob Costas to this program. The multiple Emmy-winner has enjoyed a stellar career in broadcasting, from covering every major sporting event in the world, to his own talk show, of course, on NBC. 'Later with Bob Costas' was part of a late night murderer's row that included Johnny Carson and David Letterman, that is.

In addition to his duties for NBC, he continues with his own signature series on HBO. 'Costas Now' is back this Friday night at 9:00 PM with a new episode featuring Jackie Robinson's youngest child, David. Bob joins us tonight from New York City. Mr. Costas, nice to have you on, sir.

Bob Costas: Tavis, nice to be on. How you doing?

Tavis: I'm doing well. And yourself?

Costas: Great, thanks.

Tavis: So first of all, World Series starts this weekend. Good year for baseball? Bad year for baseball? What do you make?

Costas: Well, I think in general, it's been a good year for baseball. A number of teams set attendance records. I think baseball overall set an attendance record. A lot of indicators are up. Television ratings, which had been flagging, have gone up. Marketing is up. They're exploring different marketing possibilities, satellite radio, various other avenues that seem to be very productive for them.

All this, of course, on the heels of the beginning of the season and the Congressional hearings regarding the steroid scandal, and baseball paid a price for that. They dragged their feet on it for a long time. It was the obvious elephant in the room, and neither the Players Association nor the owners wanted to address it. A good portion of the media turned a blind eye to it for too long. But eventually, it came out with the Balco thing and Canseco's book and then the Congressional hearings.

So even that could turn into a positive in a way for baseball because it's forced them to address the issue, albeit too late, but they are taking steps to address it. So I would say on balance it's been a good year for baseball.

Tavis: Did you see or hear about Romanowski on '60 Minutes' this past Sunday?

Costas: I didn't see the particular episode, but I read a lot about it. You know, obviously, Romanowski was a steroid user. Obviously, he wasn't just taking, you know, protein supplements and lifting weights and going to bed at 10:00, and getting a good night's sleep. Romanowski was a madman, and part of that was undoubtedly fueled by steroids.

Tavis: If you were a judge, what would you do to Victor Conte?

Costas: Well, without knowing all of the particulars, he's obviously guilty of illegal distribution of steroids. I wouldn't want to pass judgment without having studied every last bit of the evidence; but clearly, he's guilty of criminal acts.

Tavis: Let me switch to Jackie Robinson. This Sunday, October 23rd, the 60th anniversary, as I mentioned, of the signing of Jackie Roosevelt Robinson by the Dodgers. What's the abiding legacy of what - or lesson, for that matter, of what Branch Rickey did 60 years ago?

Costas: Well, it sounds trite, but one lesson that can be taken from it is how much we can do together, how much people of diverse backgrounds, but with good will and intelligence and a common goal can accomplish together. Would Rickey have been, although he was a smart baseball man who had virtually invented the farm system with the Cardinals and the Dodgers before that, would Rickey be little more than a footnote in history without Robinson?

Of course not. Would some great player, perhaps Robinson, have ultimately broken the color barrier? Of course. It was inevitable. But would Robinson have done it without Rickey at the time that he did it? Remember, Jackie was 27 or 28. He wasn't the usual age for a rookie, because he'd spent time in the Negro leagues. Would he have done it without Rickey?

And even if he had done it someplace else, would it have been as good a place, as good a stage as the Brooklyn Dodgers were, and would he have had the support of an intelligent man with a higher sense of principle like Rickey? I think the two of them were great for each other.

Tavis: The story on 'Costas Now' of his son is a fascinating story.

Costas: It really is.

Tavis: And I haven't had a chance to see it - yet, but I've been reading about what the piece is about and glad to have you on the program to talk about it. But I really did not know that David had spent that kind of time and that kind of energy in Tanzania. But let me just allow you to tell the story about what Mr. Robinson's son David has been doing for the last 20 years himself.

Costas: Yeah, Jackie had three children. Jack Junior suffered drug addiction after coming back from Vietnam, and died in his twenties in a car wreck. And that, and the early death of Jackie Robinson himself, he was only 53 when he died in 1972, all those things were things that David Robinson had to grapple with. He also had to grapple with, although his father is a great American and a significant figure, not just in sports but in our nation's history and an important symbol of integration, that did not come without a price.

The Robinsons were for a long time the only white family (sic) in New Canaan, Connecticut. That meant something to Jackie Robinson and I respect what it meant because he felt that integrating and being a symbol for that was important. But at the same time, it left David Robinson in search of his own cultural identity, and that really meant a lot to him. And so he's been trying to sort of unify his two selves, the American self and the African self.

And ultimately, about 20 years ago, it led him not just to visit Africa or to learn more about his heritage, but to totally immerse himself in it. David Robinson is in a very true sense an African American who has chosen to live in Tanzania, although he comes back to the United States at least once a year to visit family and friends. But he lives in Tanzania in a very remote area. I mean, it's a day-and-a-half trip from New York just to get there. Once you've completed the 18-hour flight, then you're talking about a bus ride and a long walk on foot.

It's tremendously remote. He lives in an arranged marriage. He and his wife Ruti have been married for some time, and they have six children. But it's a traditional arranged marriage, which has turned out well. Rachel Robinson, who's 83, Jackie's widow, and just a marvel - one of the wonders you'll ever run into. A person of such dignity and intelligence and still energy, and looks like a million bucks. I can't believe how great she looks. She makes that trip once a year, even at this age. She's gearing up for her next trip there.

And when our producer Brian Hyland went to Tanzania to visit with him, and visit him on the coffee farm that he runs there, he took with him a couple of baseballs. And there's a very poignant portion of the piece where Jackie Robinson's grandsons throw a baseball and catch a baseball for the first time in their lives. They'd never seen or held a baseball. They're the grandsons of Jackie Robinson.

Tavis: Wow. We talked a moment ago about the legacy of what happened when Rickey and - Robinson came together. Let me ask you as a producer, as a host, what you think the value is in sharing a story like this, the son of David? What's the value for the viewer in - this story?

Costas: Well, we thought about it this way, Tavis. October of 2005. 50th anniversary of the only Brooklyn Dodger World Championship. They won a lot of pennants, but '55 was the year that "next year" came in Brooklyn. They always said, "wait until next year.' Well, they finally beat the hated Yankees in a seven-game World Series. And we knew that everybody, from 'ESPN Classic' to all the other shows, would be revisiting that, as they should.

But we were looking for an angle that would be different. We knew everyone would talk to all the surviving players, Duke Snider and Carl Erskine and the others, and show all the film clips of Sandy Amoros's catch, and Johnny Podres pitching the shutout. How could we come at this story in a different way? And we were pretty sure this was something that no one else would have, and that it had some merit and interest beyond baseball.

Tavis: I know you've been asked this 1,000 times, but for those who've not been privy or not heard your answer, and because things continue to change in baseball, maybe your answer has changed, I don't know. What's the best change in baseball over the last 60 years, and the thing that bothers you the most about how baseball has changed over the last 60 years?

Costas: Well, the best change, clearly, if you say 60 years, the best change, obviously, is the integration of the game. From the standpoint of justice, even though full justice has not been achieved, obviously the game is fully integrated on the field. It's the most ethnically diverse sport of the major sports that we follow in America, especially now with the infusion of more and more Hispanic players and Asian players. So that's a good thing.

And slowly, some sort of equity is being achieved in the managerial ranks, and even in the front offices. So that's a good thing. So that's - the most important step forward. But just from the standpoint of entertainment and the game on the field, how much poorer would we be with no Jackie Robinson, no Willie Mays, no Roberto Clemente, no Hank Aaron, no Ken Griffey Jr.? You know, the list is endless.

So the game is just a better game on the field, and obviously it's more just for that change. That's far and away the - best change. I guess the worst thing has been that they turned a blind eye to the steroid thing for so long, and so much of the competition over the past decade was inauthentic, and the record books were distorted because of it.

Tavis: Yeah. I don't know what answer I'd get asking a white guy this question, but you're one of the brightest white guys I know, so I'm gonna ask you anyway.

Costas: As opposed to most of these dumb white guys out there.

Tavis: (Laughs) No, that's not what I meant at all. But you'll understand what I meant when I ask the question.

Costas: Imagine if I had made that statement in reverse, Tavis. I'd be backpedaling like William Bennett right now.

Tavis: Hey, - Rush Limbaugh called me a bunch of names the other day I heard. So I - catch it all the time. What can I tell you? Here's - what I meant to say, Bob.

Costas: Yeah. Okay.

Tavis: What I'm trying to get at is this. You ran that list of names. Clemente - I mean, you certainly, Hank Aaron and Willie Mays and Jackie Robinson. As you were running that list, I was thinking about the fact that there aren't nearly as many African American players - in the league today, as there used to be.

And I just heard Joe Morgan talking about this not long ago. And that's what I meant, again, by you not being an African American. But give me your take on what you think that does to baseball, that black kids today aren't working their way up to the majors the way they did back in the day.

Costas: Yeah, it's unfortunate. There was a time, both before and after Jackie Robinson broke in, when baseball was the national pastime of black America as well as white America. A great national treasure is the Negro League star Buck O'Neal, who at 93 is just - as wonderful and engaging as he could possibly be. And I'm happy to say that Buck is a friend of mine, and we've had a number of conversations about this. About how baseball used to be as much of a passion for black Americans as for white, and now I think it's been overtaken by basketball and football.

And why baseball lost its hold on a portion of black America is, I guess, a complex question. Even when teams do honest outreach and try to market in the inner city, and sell the game in the inner city programs like Harlem RBI, where they try to provide opportunities for kids to play the game. It's been somewhat successful, but it hasn't made the kind of inroads that they'd hoped for. Frank Robinson, one of my favorite players from my youth, I was talking to him during the season. He manages the Washington Nationals. Here's a significant guy in the history of baseball. The first African American manager.

Had a period of time in the commissioner's office. He's served at every level of the game. And this team that he managed so capably this past year had only three African Americans on its roster. It's a concern for him, as it is for Joe Morgan, who was my broadcast partner for a long time on NBC. But I know that it's not like baseball has turned their back on the subject. They may not quite know the answer, but they're searching for the answer.

Tavis: All right, so, I had Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State, on my radio program the other day, Bob, and she confesses that her dream job really is not to be...

Costas: Commissioner of the NFL.

Tavis: Exactly. Commissioner of the NFL, not Secretary of State. So, are you ever going to admit that you really would be a great baseball commissioner? As great a broadcaster as you are, and you know I think you are the best in the game...

Costas: Well, thank you.

Tavis: How about baseball commissioner one day?

Costas: I don't know how good I'd be at it, but I absolutely have no interest in it. It's a moot point. They'd never ask me. And - the way I look at it is this, and I've used this analogy before. If you think somebody is a good political columnist or political commentator, it doesn't follow that you think that he or she should be President or Governor or Senator.

Only that their ideas should be in the mix, and that those in a position to do something about it are aware of those ideas and take them into account. So I'm a commentator about sports, particularly about baseball, because it's my biggest sports passion. And if anything that I've said or written has influenced the discussion in some way, it's kind of in the water supply, then I'm gratified by that.

Tavis: Well, I hope they never ask you to do it, because I love watching you, and always glad to talk to you. And thanks for coming on the program, Bob.

Costas: Tavis, my pleasure. Good to see you, even from a distance.

Tavis: My pleasure. All right. As well from here. Bob Costas, host of 'Costas Now' on HBO. I'm looking forward to seeing this new piece on the life and times of one David Robinson. Up next on this program, the woman known as the hip hop violinist, Miri Ben-Ari. Stay with us.