E-mail a friendSen. John McCain
airdate November 7, 2005
Often called a "maverick,' Arizona's senior senator John McCain breaks GOP party lines and is quite outspoken. He opposed the '01 tax cut, is an advocate for government reform and passionately pushed the campaign finance legislation that bears his name. A potential '08 presidential candidate, McCain began his career as a Navy aviator and spent 5 years as a Viet Nam POW. He's a best-selling author and, in his latest book, Character Is Destiny, pays tributes to men and women who have lived truthfully.
Sen. John McCain
Tavis: I am pleased to welcome Senator John McCain back to this program. The influential Arizona Republican is a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and one of seven Senate Republicans in a group of moderates known as the 'Gang of 14.' In his spare time, he somehow manages to moonlight as a best-selling author. Go figure. His latest book is called 'Character is Destiny: Inspiring stories every young person should know and every adult should remember.' He joins us tonight from New York - City. Senator McCain, nice to have you back on the program, sir.
Sen. John McCain: Thank you, Tavis. Nice to be back with you.
Tavis: So when do you find time to help put these books together?
McCain: Well, I have a very loyal and dear friend named Mark Slater who, we have been together for 16 years and much to the consternation of both our wives, we spend too much time together. And he's really instrumental in this.
Tavis: Tell me what it is about issues like character and courage, there is something about you that is drawn to these projects where virtue is concerned. What is that?
McCain: Well Tavis, I have always been an idealist. I was fortunate enough to be raised in an environment of service to the country and high standards of honor. And then I was privileged to serve with people in Hanoi where I observed a thousand acts of courage and compassion and love. And so I have sort of been in a very imperfect life, full of failures and failings. I have been committed sort of to this belief that we should try to develop our character and our lives, so that we can make the best possible use of them.
Tavis: One could argue that what young people see too little of these days, and I say that because again the subtitle here is 'inspiring stories every young person should know.' I wonder whether or not it is your sense that a book like this is terribly propitious right about now because there are not enough examples of persons these days in leadership, who exemplify character, who exemplify ethical leadership, and that's why we have to rely on these stories from back in the day, maybe?
McCain: Maybe so, Tavis. When you look at the American people's approval ratings of Congress, as well as the President, and as well as - their view as to whether the country is on the right track or the wrong track, you have seen these same numbers have I had, and they are very bad. And confidence on the part of the American people in their leadership. And I mean that collectively, has been shaken.
It was shaken in the Clinton administration; it was shaken in the Reagan administration before that. And look, I don't want to take too much of your time on the issue du jour, but I am sorry that Terrell Owens has been suspended from the Philadelphia Eagles. But I would like for us to talk about Pat Tillman and Wilma Rudolph and Sojourner Truth, and Martin Luther King, and many others who have been inspirational leaders to all of us.
Tavis: Let me ask you, though, since you mentioned Terrell Owens, it's a fascinating example, everybody is talking about it. Since you mention it, and again, I know there is no one answer to this question. But to the extent that the polls and the studies and the surveys do seem to indicate that we are character deficient these days in a lot of respects, what do you think has brought that on? What made character such a...
McCain: I don't know, Tavis. I think that there has been an environment of partisanship which has led to character assassination and personalization of politics, which has created an environment of animosity, I think particularly in the political arena. But also it spills over into other areas where we can't respectfully disagree with one another anymore.
We have to immediately devolve into assassination of character and attacks on one's integrity. And so I think that leads to some of the - I know that the American people have a 29% approval of Congress. And I think the major reason why they disapprove is because they don't think our priorities are their priorities.
Tavis: I want to jump to some of the stories in this book in just a second. Before I do that, though, the title is fascinating for me, "Character is Destiny.' Which is really interesting because when you read the book, you understand that John McCain doesn't really believe in destiny. He believes that we arrive at wherever we arrive at by our character, by the choices that we make. Do you care to talk a little bit more about that first?
McCain: I believe that when you look at some of the great people in history, they have had very difficult beginnings. And of course, it is very helpful to come from a loving family, with a wonderful father and mother and a family unit. But many characters, such as Winston Churchill, had a terrible mother and a father who was actually cruel to him, sent away at like nine years of age, and yet he was able to persevere.
Abraham Lincoln had fits of terrible depression in the early part of his life which were almost suicidal. You look at a person like Sojourner Truth, who, she was born a slave; she was mistreated; she was sold. She was taken from her children. You know, it is remarkable, and yet she became a symbol not only of freedom from slavery, but also for women's rights.
Tavis: I appreciate the fact by evidence of your answer just now, you profile a number of persons of all races and ethnicities and certainly genders who have exemplified the kind of character that you think we ought to emulate or certainly remember or use to inspire young people.
That said, I wonder what you - have to say, that is, about the notion that part of what we see with regard to character assassination is not just across the political aisle, but indeed across the races. That we have one particular group that impugns another group as lazy or lacking character. How do we as Americans get beyond that kind of nonsense?
McCain: Well, I think one of the ways, to be honest with you, is to reread not "I have a dream" speech, because we all know that, but 'The letter from a Birmingham jail.' There's no more poignant words that have ever been written when Martin Luther King talks about how he answers questions from his daughter, who asked him why they have to ride on the back of the bus, and why discrimination is practiced against them because of the color of their skin.
And the whole, I am sure that many of our viewers remember this, but 'The letter from a Birmingham jail' was written to some clergymen in Birmingham, who advised not going on strike, but to go slow and gradually, that they were gonna make progress. And Martin Luther King was arrested, was in jail, and wrote a letter to these other clergymen saying, 'How do you expect me to show patience when we are raising another generation that are being discriminated against simply because of the color of their skin?'
That is kind of a long answer to you. But we should pay attention to the example of others who fought and sacrificed their very lives, and we just celebrated the life of Rosa Parks, another incredible act of courage.
Tavis: Relative to that 'Letter from the Birmingham jail,' your answer was not at all too long. One of my favorite King phrases comes out of that, as a growth of that, where he warned these ministers and others against taking the 'tranquilizing drug of gradualism.' What a phrase. 'The tranquilizing drug of gradualism.'
McCain: His delivery was magnificent. His grasp of the English language, as a person who tries to write and deliver speeches, I am telling you, I'm telling you, incredible oratorical skills. But they couldn't have been as moving as they were if it hadn't have been for the profound brief and commitment he had in the words that he uttered.
Tavis: Yeah. This is not about kissing up in any way. Anyone who watches my program or has followed my work over the years, knows that I have a profound and deeply loving and abiding relationship my mother. So I am always moved by the stories of folk relative to their mothers.
And with all due respect to the great stories in this book, the thing that I am most moved by quite frankly is your sharing about your mother, and what your mother told you when you had returned from being a POW. And had some not so nice things to say about those who held you captive. You gotta share that story. It's a great story.
McCain: My mother is now 93 and she's incredibly active and incredibly involved. She has always loved politics. But I wrote a book with Mark Salter back in - 1999, and we described my experience in prison. And one of the experiences was being taken from one cell to another to interrogation, where I would yell obscenities at the guards I order to raise the morale of my fellow prisoners, who I knew could hear me in surrounding cells. And some of those were printed in an article, that was reprinted in a magazine, that was reprinted from the book, and the words were used there.
And so I got a phone call one day and my mom said, 'Johnny,' and I said, 'Yes?' And she said, 'I just read the excerpts from that book that you wrote,' and I said, 'Well Mom, what did you think?' She said, 'I am coming over there and wash your mouth out with soap. I never taught you to use words like that.' I said, 'Mom, these were bad guys, really bad people.' She said, 'That is no excuse. I never taught you to use language like that.'
Tavis: I am happy to know that your mommy still calls you Johnny. (laughs)
McCain: Still does.
Tavis: Yeah, still calls you Johnny. Let me switch gears if I can, then. Speaking of character and certainly the destiny of the United States of America, does Samuel Alito have the character to sit on the United States Supreme Court?
McCain: I think so. I would like to see the hearings, obviously. I did meet with him; I think he has the character. And I would point out, Tavis, that when I ran for President, I said I would appoint conservative judges, and the President said he would, too. I don't think there is any doubt that is he conservative. But I also think there is a difference between ideologues and conservatives, and I think that Judge Alito has been very impressive.
Tavis: I don't begrudge your point of view in wanting to appoint conservative judges. That is what I would expect of a guy like you. If Bill Clinton was still President, he would be appointing more liberal judges. You get what you - get from the guy you elect...
McCain: And could I interrupt? I voted for Judge Ginsburg and Judge Briar.
Tavis: That said, the issue perhaps is not conservative or liberal, it is whether or not the judge in question will take America away from where the majority of Americans are, or what they believe in, with regard to what the county ought to stand for. To that point, there are a lot folk who are concerned that Judge Alito would take America away from where most Americans stand on the critical issues that he'd be facing as a judge.
McCain: I have not seen any evidence of that, and I would not support him if I thought he was taking America away from what, the mainstream of America. I have not seen that evidence. But I would be glad to look at it. I'm not a lawyer, nor am I a constitutional scholar. But from what I have seen of him, is he conservative, but certainly open-minded.
Tavis: What's gonna happen with this 'Gang of 14?' These moderates, I've heard a few of you come out and say now that you don't see any reason for him to be filibustered. Although we now know the hearings don't start until January. What's going to happen with these 14 of you that who are very critical for this outcome?
McCain: I can't speak for other members. I do believe that many of the members have been favorably disposed towards him after meeting with him. But I don't think particularly the seven Democrats have made up their minds, and I think it is very appropriate that they shouldn't. That is why we have hearings. Otherwise, let's just rubber stamp the guy.
I think they have been generally favorably disposed towards him. But many of them want to look, he had 15 years on the bench as you know, and they want to look at his cases that he has decided, and his opinions. But so far, I think that Judge Alito has made a favorable impression.
Tavis: Finally, the legislation that you have introduced that everybody is still talking about with regard to how we treat prisoners in US custody. You have not found agreement with Mr. Bush or Mr. Cheney in the White House on this. Tell me where this matter stands as we speak tonight.
McCain: I hope we can work something out. I really believe that this is a crucial and vital issue. Not only about America, but also, about our standing in the world, which we all know is not good. But most importantly, it is about us. I hold no brief for any terrorists, nor do you. And there are some of them I would be glad to see incarcerated forever.
But for us to practice cruel, inhumane or treatment or torture is not what America is all about. And we should not do it, and we can't do it. And I'm hoping that we will reach some agreement on this as soon as possible.
Tavis: So "Character is Destiny," I know you have been asked this question. But not by everybody. And who knows, I might look up and be the guy that asked it at the right time. So is it in your destiny to run for the White House in 2008?
McCain: As soon as have you a crystal ball for me. I'm gonna wait until after the 2006 elections, Tavis, before I would make that decision. As we just, some of the issues we just ran over, I have got a very full plate as it is. And I will just wait until after the 2006 elections to make that decision.
Tavis: If nothing else, John McCain has learned how to stay on message as they say in Washington. His new book is "Character is Destiny: Inspiring stories every young person should know and every adult should remember.' A wonderful book by Senator John McCain with Mark Salter. Senator, we're glad to have you back. You are welcome anytime.
McCain: Thank you Tavis, and congratulations on your success.
Tavis: Thank you, sir, I appreciate it. Up next on this program, rapper - turned actor, Xzibit. 'Pimp My Ride.' Stay with us.
Back to November 7, 2005