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Tavis: There are no cameras allowed in California's San Quentin Prison, where former gang leader Stanley 'Tookie' Williams is waiting to die on death row. Late yesterday, however, I was permitted to speak to Stanley Williams by telephone from my radio studio here in Los Angeles. You can hear our full conversation later on my radio program on PRI, Public Radio International. But tonight, a first look and listen to our conversation taped yesterday evening.

So Stan, how are you today?

Stanley "Tookie" Williams: Well, I'm doing as well as I did when we met vis-à-vis the other day. So, I'm feeling excellent.

Tavis: I was surprised when I came up to San Quentin last weekend and saw you. I did not know what to expect, I had never been to a maximum security prison, certainly had never been to see anybody on death row, and I did not know what to expect from you or from that conversation. But I was surprised to find that you were, in my words and not yours, pretty good spirits. Have you been that way for some time, or were you putting on an act for me?

Williams: No, I never live a facade. The fact of the matter is, is that I can only be myself. And what you saw is exactly what you get. I expressed a feeling of peace, serenity, (inaudible), that's what I feel within and that's what I exhibit.

Tavis: What brings you, when you are, at the moment at least, without a clemency from Governor Schwarzenegger, facing death on December 13th, what brings you peace and serenity at a moment like this?

Williams: The same reality that has instilled in me from the moment I embraced it, redemption. That is what manifested peace within me.

Tavis: For those who know your work, Stan, they recognize that word 'Redemption,' as the name of a movie, as the name of a book, of course the movie starred Jamie Foxx. Tell me for you, what redemption is? What is redemption for you? How do you define it?

Williams: My interpretation of redemption differs from the theological and the academic rendition. I'll just give you a set of principles that constitute my redemptive experience. One I say is, number one is the mea culpa, meaning to acknowledge all of my faults. And number two is to battle my demons and triumph. Number three is to eliminate all my vices, which were drugs, crime, senseless violence, foul language, ignorance, inhumanity, etcetera.

And vowing never to repeat them or new ones. And number four is self-transition. Number five is spiritual cultivation and maintaining faith. And number six is educating myself. And number seven is to atone, which to me means to reach out to others by means of my website, children's books, my memoir, 'Blue Rage, Black Redemption,' etcetera, etcetera.

Tavis: When you say atone, I hear your definition. I won't surprise you when I suggest to you that the definition of that word atone means something different to your critics. There are two things I have heard consistently, with regard to your atoning, that your critics want you to do that you have not done. One of those, I'd like for you to address both if you will.

And I should tell both radio and TV listeners and viewers, before we get too far into this conversation, that from time to time you will hear this beeping sound that is a consequence of your being on a state of California prison system phone. And at various points in this conversation, there will be a recording that will come in as well. And we will just pause for those recordings and continue our conversation as much as long as we can.

That said, back to the issue of atonement. There are two things that people want you to do, Stanley, that you have not done. One of them is, with regard to your atonement, first and foremost, to apologize to the victims. You are convicted of murdering four people. People have yet to hear you apologize for those murders, number one, with regard to your atonement.

And number two, people want to know why you have not been engaged in what are known as debriefing sessions. Why not talk to the authorities in our system of jurisprudence, in our penal system, to help them solve other crimes? So address for me the issue of your lack of apology for these murders you were convicted of, number one, and number two, why you have not engaged in these so-called debriefing sessions?

Williams: Well, first and foremost, I can't apologize to the victims' family members for crimes I never committed. I am innocent. And foremost, being convicted does not connote guilt. And secondly, albeit I cannot apologize for crimes I did not commit, I do have sympathy for the victims' families, and other people who lost loved ones to senseless violence.

As for your second question, in regards to me refusing to debrief, well, what society fails to realize, and what they haven't been briefed on, is the fact that in prison, the only ones who are subjected, or who are legally subjected to this debriefing process, are prison gang members. In other words, gangs that were fomented, that were established while in prison. The Crips and the Bloods are deemed to be, and which they are, street gangs.

Therefore they're not subjected to that. If that wasn't true, I would never have left solitary confinement, in which I was over there for close to seven years. And I went before the classification committee. If they wanted me to debrief, I would have been subjected to it.

Tavis: When we read in the media that Stanley 'Tookie' Williams has not engaged in debriefing sessions, and that is part of the atonement that he has not stepped up to, what you're telling me is, that you have never been asked to be a part of a debriefing session in part because the Crips and the Bloods are not a prison gang, and therefore, it's not even something that you have been called upon to do to begin with.

Williams: Exactly. And in essence, it's really illegal. Because in the DOM, which is the Department of Corrections manual, it states clearly that any other gang, or as far as prison gangs, are the ones who must debrief. And the Crips and the Bloods are considered to be street gangs, and are not required to do that. Put it this way. If I was really a gang member, I would not be able to talk to you on this phone right now. My tail would be in solitary confinement, where the majority of the so-called active, considered to be active, gang members are.

Tavis: Stan, if not for the four murders that you were convicted of, and I understand your earlier point that conviction does not mean guilt, necessarily.

Williams: Exactly.

Tavis: If not for those four murders for which you were convicted, why do you believe that you are behind bars? Why did this happen to you?

Williams: Well, I attribute everything to one word, and that's karma. And I feel that because of my reputation that I had, it was so rife, so prevalent in society, that it made me fit the bill. In other words, I was the perfect target to get off the streets. They've been trying, the police, the law enforcement, have always been trying to frame me, and they managed to do an excellent job of it this time.

Let's face it, I believe it was in 1974 when I was living in Compton for several years, there was a break in of the Compton armory, and they came and got me, and I had to submit to two lie detector tests, which I passed. But anything that happened in LA or in Compton or anywhere in the immediate area, wherever I happened to live at the time, they would attribute any of the crimes to me. So I was a thorn in their side, so to speak.

And in reality, I don't think they feared what I was, but what I had the potential to become. And that is, a man who could turn this gang life cycle into something that was productive, in order to help black society, etcetera.

Tavis: Do you mean to suggest to me that the powers that be really don't want people like you trying to turn the situation around? And if you're suggesting that, that would suggest to me then that they want to you die on December 13th given the good that you've tried to do.

Williams: Well of course, I'm not suggesting, I'm not alluding, I'm saying it. These people set me up, and they want me to die. Why do you think that the CDC and the San Quentin spokesperson and whomever is pulling his strings. Can you hear me?

Tavis: Yes, I can.

Williams: Whoever is pulling that marionette string or - putting on all of this spurious allegations about me being a gang member when it's not true, when I have all types of documentation to refute anything that they say.

Tavis: All right, tell me how it is that you have navigated prison life, as the guy who co-founded the Crips, some years ago, you renounced and denounced your association with, your affiliation with, you put down the gang life. That was made very public, even from inside the walls of San Quentin.

How have you navigated denouncing that kind of life? Has your life been threatened? How do you get along with other members of the Crips in San Quentin? How do you say, I don't want to be a part of this anymore, because what we read in here is, if you tried that on the street, you couldn't get out so easily.

Williams: I find it odd that any gang member, regardless of what gang he's in, be it a black gang, Hispanic gang, Asian gang, or what have you. I find it odd that an individual can have the courage, can consider it to be his raison d'etre, his reason to exist to be in a gang. I find it odd that they can have that type of fortitude to get in a gang, but cower when it comes to getting out of the gang. I find that to be absurd.

The same strength that an individual can use to become a gang member, he can use the same fortitude to get out of a gang, and that's exactly what I did. I don't believe about that madness about, well, if you get out of a gang, what do they say? Blood in, blood out. Well, I mean, if that's the case, you can get killed by a rival.

Why fear the death or your demise of what can be done by another gang member, when there are other individuals out there looking for you? So it's a catch-22 in a sense, but yet still, I say that if you have the fortitude and the strength to get in, you should develop even more so to get out.

Tavis: Speaking of fear, let me ask you, Tookie, whether or not...

Williams: Can you call me Stan? You know I don't really use - well, I don't know if I told you or not, but I prefer Stan.

Tavis: Fair enough. Stan, let me ask you then, whether or not speaking of fear at this moment...

Phone Operator: You have 120 seconds left on this call.

Williams: There's the caveat.

Tavis: There's the caveat, we'll come back in just a moment. But let me ask you before that break, though, whether or not, speaking of fear, at this moment, you are afraid of being put to death on December 13th?

Williams: You're asking me am I afraid?

Tavis: Yes, sir.

Williams: Oh, no. No, I'm not. I'm not afraid. I can't fear that which I know absolutely nothing about. No one has risen, that I know of, has risen from the dead and come to me and apprised me about what to look forward to. So I'm not educated in that area of mortality, so I can't fear what I don't know about.

Tavis: I know in just a few second we're going to lose this feed, this phone call. I'm going to ask you to call back so we can continue our conversation. On the other side of this break, though, here's what I would like for you to address. I know given our conversation last Saturday when I came to visit you at San Quentin...

Phone Operator: You have 60 seconds left on this call.

Tavis: I know, Stan, given our conversation in San Quentin last Saturday when I came to visit you, that the prison authorities have already come to you and asked you what you want for your last meal, they have already asked you what minister, if you would like a minister present, you want present. And they've already asked you if you want to have four witnesses present, which you are allowed by law to have. On the other side of this break, I'd like for you to answer those questions for me, and tell me what in fact you shared with the prison officials when they posed those questions to you. Can you do that for me?

Williams: Oh, yes, without a doubt.

Tavis: All right, Stan. I know you'll call me right back and we'll continue our conversation.

Williams: Okay.

Tavis: Thank you, Stan.

Williams: Will do. You're welcome.

Tavis: So Stan, you're back. We're on the line again. I asked you if you would mind sharing with me how you answered those three questions. Namely, what you said to the prison authorities when they asked you what you'd like to have for your last meal, number one. Number two, whether or not you want a minister present, and number three, whether or not you want witnesses present.

Williams: First and foremost, about the food, I told them that it was quite absurd to eat from the hand that wants to eradicate me. So I told them, no, absolutely, I don't want any food. This place is, they're trying to, well, they want to execute me; so I refuse to have a last meal. I find that ridiculous. And number two, in regards to the ministers or clergymen or what have you, I told them no. I don't want any minister or clergyman or anything, I stated, because of the fact that I felt that...

Phone Operator: This call and your telephone number will be recorded and monitored.

Williams: If I must make peace with God, then I'll do it for my own merit. But I did ask them if they were planning to assign a minister or a clergy because of my refusal, well then I prefer that they just choose, I would rather choose Minister Farrakhan and have him take their place.

Tavis: Is there a reason why you would choose Minister Farrakhan? I assume there is.

Williams: Well, albeit I'm not a minister, but he's black, he's a religious man, and I would prefer him. As for witnesses, I stated that it would be, again it would be ridiculous for me to have anyone present to watch my demise. I find that to be absurd, unethical.

Tavis: You might not meet your scheduled demise on December 13th if the Governor of this state, Arnold Schwarzenegger, decides to give you clemency. I want to talk more about why in fact you think he should do that in just a moment.

But first, for those who've read your book and for those who know your story, we know that at one point in your life you actually met Arnold Schwarzenegger long before he was Governor. Can you take me back to Santa Monica or Venice Beach and tell me how and Arnold Schwarzenegger met back in the day?

Williams: Well, I saw him on several occasions in the gym while I was working out and he was working out. We didn't speak or anything. But one day while I was with a friend down on the boardwalk on Santa Monica beach, he was passing by with a female companion and he told me, he said, 'Hey, look at that guy right there. Those aren't arms, those are legs.' (laughs) Well I was exceptionally big and muscular back then, exceptionally.

Tavis: How ironic, if at all, do you find it that a guy who you met when you were both in your working out days, is the guy who sits in the Governor's office who has the authority to give you clemency while you sit on death row? How ironic is it that the two of you meet again under these circumstances?

Williams: Very much so. Perhaps kismet. I'm not sure. I would say karma, but it's more ironic than anything. So that's all I can say.

Tavis: There are a lot of people, as you well know, across this country in California and beyond, who are appealing to the Governor, a lot of people who are well known, a lot of persons whose names are not well known, but a lot of people who are appealing to the Governor of this state to do something that has not been done since 1977, when the death penalty was reinstated in this state. And that is for someone to be given clemency off of death row.

Let me just ask, you've been very clear all along about your innocence; you've always maintained your innocence where these murders are concerned. Let me ask you, I want to just shut up for a second and give you the opportunity, give you the microphone to share with me and those watching, why it is that you believe that you ought to be given clemency by the Governor.

Williams: As far as the technical aspect goes in regards to this case, the fact of the matter is that there wasn't a shred of tangible evidence to begin with. No fingerprints. The crime scene's bloody boot print didn't match my boots, no eyewitnesses. And the shotgun shells that were found conveniently at each crime scene didn't match the shotgun I owned. All of the evidence was flimsy and was predicated on hearsay, and circumstantial evidence.

See, that's the key. Hearsay and circumstantial evidence. The entire case and appeal consisted of prosecutorial misconduct, bias jury selections, which resulted in an all white injury. IAC, which is in effective assistance of counsel, racism, involuntary psychotropic drug use, misuse of jailhouse and government informants and exclusion of exculpatory evidence. As far as the clemency goes, I feel that I bring more to the table than the physicality of my being.

I bring forth a credible change through my empathetic words, my books, my websites, my conference calls and other viable solutions. The thing is, dare I say, that I don't want to live just for the sake of living. I don't want to simply occupy space, or live inertia, but my desire is to continue to be an active part of the solution.

Tavis: I think I told you Stan, on the way to San Quentin on Saturday morning to spend those few hours with you that I'll never forget, I stopped by a fast food restaurant on the way to San Quentin to grab a quick bite.

Williams: I vividly remember that.

Tavis: Yeah, I told you that I stopped by this fast food restaurant on the way to San Quentin, and I walked into this restaurant, and there were about a dozen black folk. I could tell these were brothers who typically meet at this restaurant every day for their...

Williams: Sort of like that barbershop...

Tavis: Exactly. All of the brothers sitting in the corner having their coffee and breakfast, talking about the issues of the day. When I walked in the restaurant that morning, they looked up and recognized me, and said 'Tavis Smiley, Tavis Smiley, come be a part of the conversation.' And I went over and spoke to the brothers, and I said, 'What's today's topic?' They said we're talking about Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

And there was a particular brother in the conversation who wanted you to live, wanted the Governor to give you clemency, but he said in the very next breath, 'Then again, I'm not sure what brother Williams is experiencing is living anyway.' So let me ask you, is it really living, even if you get clemency, and why live in those conditions for another 30, 40, 50 years, why?

Williams: The thing is, is what actually changes is, what makes life livable is my discovery of being a human being and my reuniting with God. These things have instilled in me a sense of joie de'vivre, a love of life. And because I have that, I am living, I'm not dying. I was dying when I was gang banging. I was dying when I was acting violent. I was dying when I was using drugs.

I was dying when I was spiritless, when I didn't have a spirituality. I didn't indulge in spirituality. The fact of the matter is that, regardless of how long, if you get a clemency and I have to continuously live behind bars, I have a purpose. I have an agenda. Without an agenda, there is no life. You have people in society, millions and millions of people, multitudes, who have no agenda, no purpose in life. And what they're doing is they're projecting their thoughts and feelings and opine on what they think I would feel like, so I do have a life. I'm living now.

Tavis: There is very little gray area in the debate over the final fate of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams. On one side those who say his death row conversation and anti-gang message should spare him the death penalty. On the other, those who think he's a cold-blooded killer who deserves to die. On December 8th, just five days before the schedules execution, both sides will have one last chance to make their case to California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. Unless a stay by the Governor is granted, Stanley "Tookie" Williams will die by lethal injection on December 13th.

That's our show for tonight. For more on my conversation with Stanley 'Tookie' Williams, tune into my radio show on PRI, Public Radio International. Check your local listings. See you back here next time on PBS. Until then, good night form Los Angeles. Thanks for watching. And as always, keep the faith.