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Tavis: Congressman Jeff Flake is serving his third term in the House, from Arizona's sixth district. The increasingly influential Republican was successful last week in calling for wholesale changes in the Republican leadership of the House. These changes, of course, come in the wake of the Jack Abrahamoff scandal. Congressman Flake joins us tonight from Phoenix. Congressman, nice to have you on the program, sir.

Jeff Flake: Thanks for having me on.

Tavis: I recall it was Ronald Reagan out of the state of California as President who once said that, I'll paraphrase here, thou shalt not speak ill, the eleventh commandment, I recall. Thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican. What business do you have going after another Republican like Tom DeLay?

Flake: Well, I don't think that we made any changes that wouldn't have been made soon. We may have just sped it up a little bit. But we had a House rule that said any member who was indicted cannot serve in a leadership post, so Mr. DeLay was temporarily not serving. But we felt that we need, we have a big agenda, and we need to have a permanent majority leader, and we just couldn't wait any longer.

Tavis: It's one thing to say you need a majority leader because there's a lot of work to be done. It's another thing to suggest or to say that you need a majority leader because the one you had had his travails and issues that were starting to cast aspersion on the party. Did you mean to suggest the former, the latter, or both?

Flake: Well, I think it's a combination of both. I think there were some of us who felt, as early as in September, that we ought to have leadership elections and move on. I was one of those, Charlie Bass, who worked with me on this, was, as well. But we never had critical mass of support within our party until the Jack Abrahamoff plea bargain came. And then we knew that we had to move on.

Tavis: You've been very vocal, Congressman, about saying that your party, the Republicans in the House, that is, need a course correction. What do you mean by that?

Flake: Well, we don't just need new leaders. We do need a different direction. I think for those of us who believe in limited government, economic freedom, and general conservative principles, I think we've gone astray lately. We're spending far too much money. We can't sustain the trend we're on. Some of the processes in the House, particularly with regard to earmarking, or the ability of a member to take a particular appropriation for a project in his or her own district, has gotten out of control.

Back in the early nineties, when Republicans took control, we ridiculed the Democrats at that time for earmarking. And we've taken the practice and quadrupled it. And it's just not where we need to be. And we had the corruption case with Duke Cunningham, and earmarks were the currency of corruption there.

He was basically taking bribes to deliver earmarks to one particular defense contract. About $90 million worth. And so, we've got to have a course correction here.

Tavis: Over the last couple of days, both Republicans and Democrats have offered proposals, ideas of what ought to be done to set the House's business in order, if I could put it that way. I'll come back in a moment to those specific proposals. But let me stay with this notion, your notion, that is, of a course correction.

Specifically where leadership is concerned, is it my sense that your concerns were not just limited to Tom DeLay, but indeed, you think there's some issues with Republican House leadership across the board, Speaker on down?

Flake: You bet. We've allowed this. It wasn't just Mr. DeLay who allowed this. It's been - our entire conference has allowed it. And I think all of us share some blame for allowing this to get to the point that it's in right now. But leadership needs to lead, and we need to lead in a direction that is consistent with our principles. And I don't think we've been there lately.

With this prescription drug benefit, with the farm bill, with just bloated appropriation bills, highway bills. We simply aren't on a sustainable trend, in terms of spending. We're loading debt on our kids and grandkids, and we just can't afford to do it anymore.

Tavis: I say this somewhat facetiously. I note that most often, members of the House wear that little lapel pin that you can only get if you are an official member of the House. I note tonight, again, facetiously, that you're not wearing your pin. Does that mean that you've been told that you can't come to the Republican caucus meetings no more?

Flake: (laugh) No, not at all. Not at all. I can tell you that I think there was a silent majority for quite a while of my colleagues who felt that we needed to move ahead, and needed a new direction. And so, I can tell you when we decided to circulate the petition to have leadership elections, we had half the signatures we needed within an hour or so. And it was clear that we were going to have the signatures we needed. And Mr. DeLay did the honorable thing, and he went ahead and stepped down before.

Tavis: All right, let me talk specifically about these plans I promised to get to a moment ago. Let me start with your side of the aisle. Speaker Dennis Hastert, along with David Dreier, a Republican out of the state of California, announced recently some ideas they have about what to do specifically where lobbying is concerned. Why don't you share what they had to say, and then tell me your thoughts about what they had to say, in fact.

Flake: Well, they would place more restrictions, in terms of what lobbyists can give members of Congress. Paying for meal, I think there's a $50 limit now that would go down to $20. They had proposals with regard to private travel, noting that it's been abused in the past. My own feeling is that to the extent we just say all right, we're gonna beat up on lobbyists, then we're missing the point.

We need to put our own house in order, particularly in terms of earmarks. And then also budget process reform. As far as the specifics, there are ways to get around the $20 limits. You can simply accept a check, I believe, from the lobbyist at dinner, and then they can pay whatever they want for the dinner.

So I think to the extent we try to clamp down there and say we've solved this, we're wrong. We just need to look at our own conduct first. With regard to private travel, that's another thing that we have to look at closely. We obviously need some curbs there. And we ought to have pre-approval, where if you're taking a trip that's privately financed, you ought to have that approved by the ethics committee, or some oversight committee in Congress before you take it.

That's only good sense. But saying there should be no more private travel really puts leadership in a position of having, I think, too much control about where members might travel. For example, I've not agreed with my leadership or the White House in terms of Cuba policy. I that Americans ought to have the right to travel to Cuba.

I've been there a few times, and have been there on a private trip. I can no longer do that under these new rules. And I think that's wrong, because we're spending a lot of money, taxpayer money, directed at Cuba. And we have some oversight responsibilities.

Tavis: The Democrats have responded by saying that they want their members to sign a declaration of honesty. Now I must tell you, with all due respect, that brought me to tears of laughter. I was laughing so hard that I was crying when I read the Democratic proposal for a declaration of honesty. Shouldn't I assume, as a taxpayer, that every member of Congress elected is supposed to be honest? Why the heck are you guys signing a declaration of honesty?

Flake: You bet. Every two years, we are elected. And every two years, we are sworn in anew. And we swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. And that should be our declaration of honesty.

Tavis: Let me ask you, though, whether or not you think that there is something to be said about the fact that we're having a conversation where we believe that members of Congress ought to be told the distinction between what's right and what's wrong, as opposed to inherently, as public servants, knowing where the line ought to be between what's right and what's wrong, what's acceptable and not acceptable.

Flake: Well, like I said, we've been complicit, I think, in allowing the situation to occur, particularly with earmarks, like I said, where that kind of lends itself to corruption, and it's easily corruptible. Having said that, we have laws in place. Jack Abrahamoff is going to jail, as he ought to. Duke Cunningham was caught, and he'll do jail time, as well.

And we do have laws on the books that ought to be enforced. And I think sometimes the reaction is well, let's focus on, people think lobbyists are the problem, let's focus on them and we can ignore what we ought to do in order to clean up the problem. And it's gonna be more than just a lobby reform bill that's needed. And I think that'll be a longer process.

Tavis: Let me shift gears, somewhat dramatically, in the few minutes I have left. Because over the last few days, as your name has become much more well known because of what you've accomplished over the last two days, leading this effort to reform the leadership, or change leadership in the House, a lot's been written and said about you.

And as I got more into your background, I've become really fascinated by the time that you have spent in Africa. Here you are, a Republican member of the House who has spent a great deal of time in Africa. Tell me about your experience and your relation with Africa, and how that came to be.

Flake: Well, I love the continent of Africa. I've spent about three years of my life in southern Africa, first as a Mormon missionary in South Africa and Zimbabwe. I was there in 1982 and '83. And then the end of the decade, 1989-'90, for a year there. My wife and myself and our 18 month old child at the time went to the country of Namibia, when Namibia gained its independence from South Africa.

So for any political junkie, it was a wonderful experience to be there when a country has its first elections and writes its constitution. It was just a dream come true, and just really enjoyed it, and have kept some association with people there. Was able to travel back a couple of years ago. And I just really enjoy that part of it.

Tavis: Perhaps a strange connection here, but it's not lost to me that you were in Namibia, to your earlier point, when the elections were first held there, when democracy came to Namibia. We are struggling in a place called Iraq right now, to let democracy take hold. Any comparisons or contrasts you can make between Namibia and Iraq?

Flake: Well, yes. When you see people with the purple fingers in Iraq exercising their franchise for the first time in a long while, if they've ever been able to do it before, in Namibia, you had a situation where most of the population, nearly all of the population, had never voted at a real election. And you had, in Namibia, I believe it was a 98 percent turnout.

And it was just a wonderful example of what democracy really means, and how they had really longed for it there. And they've done a good job in Namibia. They've held to their constitution. They've only amended it a couple of times. They've had several successful elections since that time. And I think we ought to all applaud them.

Tavis: Finally, I suspect that most members of Congress, Republicans or Democrats, will never spend the kind of time living on the continent of Africa, as you have. So tell me what you think it's going to take, then, for members of Congress, your colleagues, to get it where Africa is concerned.

Flake: Well, I think that over the past couple of years, we've made some good moves. We've had AGOA, some trade agreements which have allowed exports to come from southern Africa and other parts of Africa more easily into the United States. And then in terms of long term, sustainable development, I think that's the best route to go with trade.

But as members travel there, I know the Congressional Black Caucus, a number of members travel to Africa frequently. And there's nothing like being there, to actually travel and spend some time to understand the problems that exist, and what we can do to help them. So, I'm a big advocate of living overseas when you can, and traveling there whenever you can as well.

Tavis: Republican Congressman Jeff Flake out of Arizona. A name I'm sure you're going to be hearing more from in the coming months and years. Congressman, nice to have you on the program. All the best to you.

Flake: Hey, thank you.

Tavis: My pleasure. Up next on this program, best selling author Barbara Stanney. We'll talk the road to wealth in a moment, stay with us.