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Tavis: Paul Beatty is an acclaimed novelist and poet whose previous books include "The White Boy Shuffle" and "Tough." The L.A. native is the editor of a new combination called "Hokum, An Anthology of African American Humor." Of the book, 'Publishers Weekly' says it picks up where Chappelle's show left off, gouging the government, lampooning cultures Black and White, leaving no sacred cow unslaughtered. Paul Beatty, nice to have you on the program.

Paul Beatty: Nice to be here.

Tavis: Let me start with this comparison to Chappelle's show. So one critic says this book picks up where Chapelle's show left off. For Black folk, is that a compliment or a dis?

Beatty: Ah, I don't know why it would be a dis. I think the Chapelle show definitely caused a tremor, definitely in comedy, and in the way that people talked about race and gender and class and celebrity. And so, I don't think that it's a dis.

Tavis: Okay. All tremors, though, aren't good. We live in California, so every time there's a tremor, that's not necessarily a good thing.

Beatty: There's a difference between a tremor and a cataclysmic earthquake, so.

Tavis: Yeah. (laugh) But I guess that's my point. Some people thought Chapelle, with all due respect, represented that with the kind of humor he put out there. He did well in the ratings, obviously, but there were a lot of Black folk inside, as you know, that didn't embrace it.

Beatty: Sure, sure. It's like, somebody's going to think that about anything. Good, bad, indifferent, so.

Tavis: Okay. All right, John, put this cover back on the screen right quick, 'cause you can't talk to Paul Beatty about this book and not start the conversation with an explanation of this cover. So it's a book about Black humor, and you choose an eaten watermelon rind at the cover. So please, take a moment to explain what this is about.

Beatty: (laugh) It's first meant to be thought provoking. It's obviously, for some people, an offensive image. And it's meant to be funny. I think that it's funny, and it's meant to also draw attention to the minstrel tradition in African American humor, which is, I feel, a valid tradition, and still extant deeply within African American humor. Especially performed and spoken humor.

Tavis: How would you respond to someone who said to you that while you find this funny, and let me just say at the outset, we both understand, as two grown men here, that art is subjective.

Beatty: Sure.

Tavis: Comedy is subjective.

Beatty: Sure.

Tavis: So, some people find stuff funny, some people don't. That ain't necessarily one's responsibility when telling a joke. However, in the context of the African American experience, how do you respond to somebody who says that this is, at best, sophomoric. It's so old and sophomoric and so adolescent. But at worst, it is downright offensive to do a book about Black comedy that has an eaten watermelon rind on the cover?

How would you respond to that if somebody said that to you? Thought provoking, yes, is thought provoking but is that the only standard? Is that the only standard here? Is that the unit of measurement?

Beatty: For the cover of the book, yes. The real measurement of the book is the contents of the book.

Tavis: Okay. We'll get to that in a second.

Beatty: For me, I don't deny that many people will see that it's an offensive image. And I think, you know what? It's a watermelon. Why is it offensive? I don't know.

Tavis: Paul, come on now.

Beatty: No, I know why it's offensive.

Tavis: You know why it's offensive.

Beatty: Right. 'Cause it goes on with all this degrading humor.

Tavis: So don't say you don't know. Don't say why. You know why.

Beatty: No, when I say, I'm not saying, I'm asking it more in a rhetorical. Obviously, I know the history. Or I know what I feel is the history.

Tavis: I want to get to the content in just a second. We'll do that. Let me tell you, though, and I'll give you a chance to respond to this before we get to the content. There is some good content in here. And you have said in any number of conversations, I've read where you suggested what you wanted to do was expose the reader to stuff that you were not exposed to growing up.

Beatty: Yeah.

Tavis: That you think is valuable, and that we can, in fact, be enlightened, empowered, and certainly entertained by. That's my phraseology, my formulation, not yours. But that's essentially what you wanna offer in this book. A lot of the stuff that we've not seen before, or certainly the spotlight of our focus and our gaze has not been placed on it because we've not been exposed to it.

Now, that said, I guess the disconnect for me, what I'm trying to juxtapose is how and why you'd put out a text that can enlighten, empower, and entertain, but the cover is so offensive that I might not ever get to what you're trying to give me. Is that smart?

Beatty: I didn't do it to be smart. Obviously, put it this way. And this is not the reason why I put it on the cover. I think...

Tavis: But that might be the end result, is my point. You see what I'm getting at?

Beatty: That's true. And I can't predict that. Who knows? Maybe the cover causes enough of a hubbub that people actually approach the book.

Tavis: Maybe so.

Beatty: And so, I don't know.

Tavis: Let me talk about the content.

Beatty: Go ahead.

Tavis: I want to get to the content, 'cause that is important. I mentioned earlier there is some good content in here. Although when I first saw the book reviewed, I was trying to figure out how a book that features Langston Hughes, Sojourner Truth, and Malcolm X, just for three names, could be a book about Black humor.

Beatty: Oh, well, they're three very funny people. And like you were talking about things that we don't get exposed to. It's like you grow up and you read one or two, if you're lucky to be exposed, at least when I was growing up, you were lucky to be exposed to one or two Langston Hughes poems.

Tavis: Exactly.

Beatty: And the thing that you never get, or definitely in a scholastic setting, is his humor. He can be profane in many ways, and those things never, I didn't get to those till very late in my reading. And the things with, like, Malcolm X. I always considered Malcolm X a very funny person, and I loved listening to his speeches.

And one of the things he uses to draw people in and to illustrate his point, he's very funny. Sometimes he's funny just because he's saying things that people weren't used to hearing then. Whoa. And sometimes, a reaction to that is to laugh. And then, but he is genuinely a funny person.

Tavis: I guess the question is whether or not in those kinds of instances, as a writer, whether you're laughing with them or laughing at them.

Beatty: Man, sometimes you don't know. Sometimes I don't know. Sometimes I just go, oh, I'm laughing. Am I laughing at them or laughing with them? With the examples that you pick, I'm laughing with them. And because they're intentionally trying to be funny, the Sojourner Truth thing, the famous 'Ain't I A Woman' speech, where she has a heckler. It's almost like a little stand-up.

There's a back and forth, and she's being funny to illustrate a point. And to also illustrate that she's not afraid. And one of those things is, I'm so relaxed, I'm so comfortable in my skin, that I can afford to be funny even in this kind of aggressive setting. I was going to say something else but I forgot.

Tavis: No, no. I wanted to ask you about how you find the distinction, the difference, if in fact there is one, between Black humor and White humor.

Beatty: Ah. (laugh) That's a good question.

Tavis: Is there one? Or is funny, funny?

Beatty: Funny is not funny, because obviously, not everybody finds the same thing funny. There is, I was talking to a comedian the other day, and he was saying that he had two different routines. He had a routine for Black audiences, and a routine for White audiences. And at some point, the schizophrenia, he just became uncomfortable with it.

So he said that he did what he wanted to do. I'm going to do stand-up. I want it to be a little political, a little this, a little that. And he found, for him, he had an integrated audience. And he was happy with that, and so that was a thing. Which doesn't necessarily mean there's Black and White humor. But he felt the need to perform two different routines in front of two different audiences.

Tavis: Speaking of comedians, there are some people in here that I thought might be in here, in a book about Black humor, that you didn't cover. Obvious choices like Bill Cosby, for example.

Beatty: Bill Cosby is, it's a written book. I mean in the text, so there's not very much, like, stand-up routines. There's a transcription of an old Burt Williams routine, and a comedian Franklin Ajaye. (sp?) But, like, I grew up listening to Bill Cosby. But a lot of it's all sound effects. He's imitating the sound of a drill or something. It just doesn't really translate to the page.

Tavis: The other thing, before my time runs out, that I wanted to ask you right quick is, this is an impossible question, but let me ask anyway, and maybe we can come up with something here, once we (unintelligible) long enough. Whether or not it's worth trying to define what is offensive for a comedian, or whether or not when a comedian hits the stage, anything goes, you know it's a comedy show, and whatever comes out of his or her mouth, you should just deal with it. If you find it funny, laugh, if you don't find it funny, don't laugh. But is there a line, is what I'm trying to get to?

Beatty: No. The line is for the person to make. I think what I get offended by is when comedians say something and then get offended that somebody else is offended.

Tavis: Right.

Beatty: That's like, come on, now. You said it, you've gotta live with it. And to me, that's offensive. (laugh) Because that's a complete disrespect that the person actually has an opinion and is really listening to you.

Tavis: Yeah. Well, it is a fascinating book. It's gotten a lot of rave reviews. A lot of critics have been talking about it. Some like it, some loathe it. But you will judge for yourself. It is the new book by Paul, edited Paul Beatty. "Hokum, An Anthology of African American Humor." Paul, nice to have you on the program.

Beatty: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Tavis: All the best to you. That's our show for tonight. You can catch me on the weekend on PRI, Public Radio International. Check your local listings. See you back here next time on PBS. Until then, good night from Los Angeles. Thanks for watching, and as always, keep the faith.