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• Article on Mr. Cavett
• About The Dick Cavett Show: Comic Legends
• Mr. Cavett's bio

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Tavis: He just whispered don't be nervous, although I know I'm in over my head, because I'm pleased to welcome to this program TV legend Dick Cavett. The Emmy-winning talk show host has given us some of the great interviews and conversations (laughs) in television history. Of his many shows, 'The New York Times' had this to say: 'Critics found Mr. Cavett's shows to be islands of literacy in television's sea of standardized fare.'

Dick Cavett: Could you vomit from this?

Tavis: (Laughs) I'm in over my head, I told you. You can see now. Many of his classic episodes on DVD. Among those now available, a collection featuring the late, great Ray Charles.

Cavett: Ah.

Tavis: The most recent release, however, focuses on comedians. And so, from the DVD "Comic Legends" here is Dick Cavett with a then-young comedian named Woody Allen.

Tavis: (Laughs)

Cavett: A hearty handclasp to you. Do you know that reference?

Tavis: Yes.

Cavett: A hearty handclasp?

Tavis: Mm mmm.

Cavett: W.C. Fields? You're younger than everybody, I forgot about that. (Laughs) But that thing with Woody, I'm not sure it's the same show. But a couple of times, he came on and we took questions from people, and a woman in the balcony yelled out, do you think sex is dirty? And he said, 'It is if you do it right." (Laughs) So, and that went around for a while.

Tavis: I am delighted to have you here. I don't know where to start. If I had come to you some years ago, before I started doing this, what advice would you have given me?

Cavett: Ooh. Get on the nearest bus, and get out of town.

Tavis: You wouldn't have said that, 'cause you love...

Cavett: When William Faulkner asked the studio if he could write at home, and he got in a train and went back to Mississippi?

Tavis: (Laughs) You wouldn't have told me that, though, 'cause you loved doing this.

Cavett: I did, yeah. It's not so easy to tell if you love it while you're doing it, when you're in the middle of it. And when you learn that you're going to do a 90-minute show, and then another one, and then another one, and then two the next day, with 20 minutes between? And at the end of the second one, you just look and think, the guest's lips are moving.

They must be saying something, (laughs) but I don't know what it is. That was awful. But of course, talk shows were 90 minutes in those days. These sissies now who do hour shows...

Tavis: Hey, you calling me a sissy? I'm

Cavett: Oh, is this an hour?

Tavis: 'Cause I'm only 30 minutes. So I'm a real punk.

Cavett: Defend yourself. (Laughs) Listen, I don't know why this should remind me of this, but a man I love was, is Muhammad Ali. And we became such good friends. He stayed at my house out in the country one time, and it was just great. And I always brought him up. He would be depressed a lot. And on one shoot, they said, I don't know what it is. You went over and said, you're here now. And he just blossomed. Great fellow.

Tavis: What was that like, doing a 90-minute talk show?

Cavett: Well, I didn't know there was any other kind. I had worked on "The Tonight Show" for Jack Paar, and I worked on 'The Tonight Show' for Johnny. And it never occurred to me that a talk show was anything - an hour has 60 minutes in it, and a talk show has 90 minutes. And Johnny, in fact, and I know he won't mind my revealing this, did regret making that mistake to go to an hour.

And I don't think, I probably could have told him that he would, because I was very fond of him, and he of me. And I probably would have said Johnny, I don't know if I'm any, it's my business telling you this, but you're only happy for that hour or hour and a half that you're on stage in the day. And the rest of life is pretty tedious and dull for you. I never knew a man to be so socially cowering.

He just, as soon as people started around, he wanted away. I do, too, but I can make it seem like I don't want to get rid of them. (Laughs) Johnny could not, or would not. And he really suffered that way.

Tavis: Speaking of Johnny...

Cavett: He didn't have a ramrod up his spine the way people thought.

Tavis: Yeah.

Cavett: Well, he did a bit. But there was warm side to him that was never seen. Except one night, he'd be always accused of he never gets political like Cavett. One night, I just switched to his show, and he used to watch mine. It was a funny feeling. And he said, "I just want to say, before we go on, that the idea that a man like George Wallace could be up for candidate for President of the United States is scandalous and appalling. We'll be right back.' (Laughs) Nobody ever remembered his saying that.

Tavis: But he was right about that, though.

Cavett: Yeah, he was right, yeah.

Tavis: He was very much so right about that.

Cavett: I did a show with Wallace in his home after his gut shot. So, yeah, his wife was carrying on with a trooper, I think. This isn't on the air, is it? (Laughs) We're not in a break? Oh, God.

Tavis: Speaking of Johnny Carson, the competition back then. So you guys are doing 90-minute shows, but you're on, Carson's on, and Merv Griffin is on.

Cavett: I don't believe that yet.

Tavis: How did you ever get guests?

Cavett: I don't believe that yet. Yet, it didn't seem difficult. I was told that some nights at "The Tonight Show" or 'Griffin Show,' they'd say how the hell didn't we get Sophia Loren and Cavett did, or whatever. But I never thought of that. I never took it seriously. I never even could dream far second that I was going to knock Johnny off his throne. I just thought anything in television that lasts more than five weeks is a break.

The average TV career is what, four years point three, or something, at best. So none of that bothered me. But I had never thought of it that way till you just said it.

Tavis: That's a lot of competition.

Cavett: There's the celebrity bulletin, and you see that Fred Astaire is coming to town. And oh, let's get him before they do.

Tavis: Exactly.

Cavett: 'Cause they didn't seem to be...

Tavis: You guys were all in New York at that time, too.

Cavett: Oh yeah. I did, God, how many years did I do that way? I did the show out here twice for a fortnight. Can you say fortnight on the air? Yeah. (Laughs) And it was always fun to come out here. (Laughs) But people say to me all the time, what part of California do you live in? Or you're pretty much in L.A. now, aren't you? I don't know why. Do I seem like an L.A.-nic?

Tavis: You're laid back.

Cavett: Yeah?

Tavis: You're laid back.

Cavett: That's what it takes to be a Californian? (Laughs)

Tavis: Part of it, I think.

Cavett: How does that explain Richard Nixon?

Tavis: (Laughs) Speaking of which, nice segue. Talk to me about the Nixon years, and one Dick Cavett being watched and...

Cavett: I know just about what you're going to say.

Tavis: Yeah. Do you remember this?

Cavett: Yeah. And it was a creepy thing, too. First time I realized that we were being inspected by the great, unindicted, co-conspirator in the White House was (laughs) - let me give him his full due.

Tavis: Yeah, I see. Break it off, yeah.

Cavett: Yeah, it was really curious. Someone called and said to somebody on my staff, there was an ecological issue at the time about the SST, the supersonic transport. People were against it, and they were opposed to it, and they'd mention it now and then. But never did I dream that the great god in the White House was looking at us. And they called and said, "You've had three people on who have spoken against the SST." Actually, it was four. And you'll be too young to remember this name, but the fourth one was Arthur Godfrey.

Tavis: I know Arthur Godfrey.

Cavett: You know Arthur Godfrey.

Tavis: Mm hmm, sure.

Cavett: And he was a fanatic about aviation. By the time, he had flown everything except jet helicopters. Amazing man. Anyway, the thought that somebody's keeping a score in Washington of who comes on and talks about what? So they put a man on. My producer agreed to keep the trouble down a minimum. They had a man named MacGruder, not that one, not the Watergate one, but another one with a crew cut and one of those pins that the Secret Service always wears, and it never occurred to them that now you know they're Secret Service?

Tavis: Now you know they're Secret Service, exactly. (Laughs)

Cavett: Yeah. So, (laughs) we've enjoyed the same things.

Tavis: Yeah.

Cavett: Well, anyway, we had this guy MacGruder on, and he was kind of a stiff, and had a crew cut and looked like G-man. And he tried to be sort of jovial. (Laughs) 'I hope you don't think I'm being forced here on you.' And I said, 'That's exactly what I think.' And he laughed, thinking I was kidding. Well, at the end, he finished his presentation, and I said, 'Okay, we did this because the White House wanted you on. And I certainly hope the SST is defeated, but thank you for being here.' (Laughs)

And they didn't think that was good enough. And this, I shall, I think, reveal for the first time. From that time on, I only learned this a couple of years ago, all the people on my staff's taxes were audited. All of them; for the first time. Do you think that's a coincidence? Among the crappy aspects of Nixon's personality was vehemence and revenge.

And to get the secretaries and everybody to have their taxes audited by the great football player from Yorba Linda...

Tavis: Hanging out with Dick Cavett will get you audited.

Cavett: It'll tarnish your name. God, I hope that doesn't happen to you.

Tavis: I hope not. I think I'm okay. I've always tried to make a distinction, when I talk particularly to communications students or persons who is ask me about being a talk show host, I've always tried to make a distinction between an interview and a conversation. I referenced, in my introduction to you - I used both words. But I once made the distinction between interview and conversation, and I put you as one of the great conversationalists.

Cavett: Well, this is funny, because you've ruined the last few minutes of the show, or whenever it is you ask people about advice. But the best part of a piece of advice that I ever got was from Jack Paar. And I said, is there anything you can convey to me that I can use when I'm about to do a talk show? And he said, yeah, kid. Don't make it an interview.

That's clipboards and David Frost. You know who David Frost is? The guy who developed eyes over his bags. (Laughs) But a dear, dear friend of mine. Anyway, he said make it a conversation, kid. Nobody wants to hear what's the capital of North Dakota or whatever it is. And I noticed, I kind of forgot it. Then I started doing the daytime show, and one day, I had the breakthrough.

I forgot we were on television. James Mason, the actor, was so interesting, and we were talking. And I realized oh, wait a minute. Oh, I have to keep track of time. I may get a cue. I felt like I was talking to him in his home. And whenever a show gets that rolling feeling, and it's not now let's see this, and let's ask you this, it's what you want. And you're wise to have come upon that yourself. I had to have Jack Paar tell me.

Tavis: Yeah, well, I just...

Cavett: And we were real men back then, we did 90-minute shows.

Tavis: (Laughs) When I say Ray Charles, what comes to mind? 'Cause when I got this, I got this Ray Charles DVD, I stayed up all night.

Cavett: Oh, no, did you really?

Tavis: I watched this thing over and over and over again.

Cavett: It's worth that, isn't it? It's like a piece of music that you love or a book at you love, and you repeat it. What comes to mind is, (singing) now she's gone, and we're through. Am I blue? I was off a little.

Tavis: (Laughs) He said, it's not that.

Cavett: But I sat with Ray Charles and did that...

Tavis: He said he couldn't find the pitch.

Cavett: Huh?

Tavis: He said he could not find your pitch.

Cavett: Yeah.

Tavis: Didn't he tease you about that?

Cavett: Well, I taught him a lot about music, but. (Laughs) I said, sometimes it helps if you go like this with your foot while you're playing. And he said, I'm gonna use that.

Tavis: Yeah. (Laughs)

Cavett: (Laughs) I loved that man so. And by the way, when the first of these came out, and they're so quality well done by...

Tavis: These DVDs, yeah.

Cavett: Yeah, in terms of just the quality and the look and everything. And the fact that they've made the shows look better than they did when they first aired. But Ray, when he talked, what I was going to say was it surprised me that we had the whole shows on here. You're not getting excerpts, ever. There are nine shows that Janis Joplin, or five, the whole shows are there. All of them have the whole shows.

And when he talked and got off into - I had the good taste to ask him if he wanted his vision, his sight back, 'cause I really wanted to know. And to hear him answer that, and to just to talk about it so honestly and so forcefully. His answer, incidentally, was maybe for an hour. But he had everything in his life that he needed, and he had had vision once. And he didn't feel any need to have it again. And that moved me. I always thought that was great.

Tavis: When you met...

Cavett: He always knew my voice from a crowd. I went to a concert of his once, and I said, where's Ray backstage. And they said oh, he's about 35 yards over there, and there were people in between. And I said, Ray's over there? And he yelled, "I hear Dick Cavett." (Laughs) It was magic.

Tavis: (Laughs) Do you think the voice did anything to aid and abet this career of yours? 'Cause your voice does stand out. When you hear the voice, you know it's Dick Cavett.

Cavett: I was aware of a voice when I was seven. My voice, at puberty went up. I was always born, that's almost a joke. (Laughs)

Tavis: Yeah. (Laughs) It didn't go down, it went up, huh?

Cavett: Yeah. Really, as a kid, I had this voice. Like that one kid who was in movies. And I noticed that I could be, and it sounded adult. My parents were both English teachers. That might have had something to do with my vocabulary, and all that stuff. But I would be in the back of a room and I'd ask a question of the speaker up front, and other people did, too.

But when I did, everybody turned around. And it used to embarrass me. So, I didn't know what I had done. It's an important thing in some way, in that I guess it's distinct, and then people will say, 'I knew you by your voice. Hey, I recognized your voice.' And I'd say, 'You're very good, you recognize the voice.' (Laughs) But yeah, it felt funny as a kid.

I called a little girlfriend of mine named Mary one time, and the guy who answered said, 'Who shall I say this is,' or something like that. I was probably about nine years old. And I said, 'It's a friend of Mary's.' And he said, 'Where do you know her from?' And I said, 'The playground.' (Laughs) Not knowing. And he says, 'You son of a bitch, if I ever get on this phone again, I'm gonna find out where you are and kill ya.' And it took me weeks to get over this. (Laughs)

Tavis: A nine-year-old kid, traumatized.

Cavett: That's a real story.

Tavis: 'Cause his voice is deep.

Cavett: Yeah. (Laughs)

Tavis: (Laughs) Do you recall what - I love this line...

Cavett: By the way, they did trace the call, and my father got five years. (Laughs) No, I jest.

Tavis: (Laughs) I love this story. Do you recall what Groucho Marx said to you when you first met him and told him what a big fan of his you were?

Cavett: Yeah. I had met Woody for the first time of my life the night before, where he was playing the Blue Angel and bombing all over the place, and wretched and vomiting. (Laughs) He just was a true soldier about that. He got through all that. And we both lamented the fact that George S. Kaufman had died that day. He used to be on a show called 'This Is Show Biz.'

But he wrote half of the shows on Broadway, and 'The Man Who Came To Dinner' with Moss Hart, great playwright, and great wit. There were three wits, George Kaufman, Groucho and Fred Allen. And Groucho was at the Kaufman funeral. Never dreamed that would happen. Woody and I agreed to go together, and he didn't go. But I went in a side room; it was packed, at Frankie Campbell Mortuary.

And I looked over, and there was a cigar. Not lighted, of course, nor even lit. (Laughs) Which way is right? I don't wanna make any errors on you. And there is Groucho Marx, not far from me, in my vision, in the same room with me, breathing the same air. He was a god to me. And speaking of God, don't worry, I'm not going to do anything bad. (Laughs) Groucho never repeated himself. He never - there was no sense of mind dimming until the very end.

And if he'd said it once, he'd told me five times. George S. Kaufman gave me the greatest compliment of my life. He said, 'You're the only actor I'd allow to ad lib in something I've written.' And that, that made Groucho's life. He loved saying it. And I said, he's leaving now, the funeral's over. My God, I forgot to listen to the stuff. And we're out in the street, and now Groucho's getting away.

And I hear a woman saying hi, Groucho, I'm Edna Ferber. And I thought, I'm not in Nebraska anymore, am I? Hi, Groucho, I'm Edna Ferber. And she left him, and then Art Carney and Abe Burroughs, a figure of that time, went up to the corner of Fifth, across the museum, and they left him. And I didn't even need to be asked. I just went up and said, "I'm a big fan of yours, Groucho."

And he said, "Well, if it gets any hotter, I could use a big fan." (Laughs) And we were off. We walked down the street; it was Puerto Rican Day Parade. And a Puerto Rican man came toward Groucho and just went like that, and went, comedy. And Groucho said, is it true you were cutting cane two months ago? (Laughs) He insulted every doorman between Seventy-Ninth and the.

(Laughs) And we went in the Plaza. He said, just like on the game show, he said, well, you're certainly a nice young man, and I think I'd like to have lunch with you. And I fainted, nearly. He said, "We're at the Plaza; I'm staying there." So we went over into the Oak Room. And though he is not, you would ever say when you were with him, on, yet his mechanism will continue to work through, between serious things. (Laughs)

And I'd just about had it when he turned to the waiter and said, 'Do you have any fruit in the kitchen, besides the chef?' (Laughs) And it was just like that. And yet, he could talk seriously about novels he was reading and stuff. He was just a great, great man.

Tavis: What do you think when you hear critics and indeed people like me, who are overjoyed about the opportunity to talk to you because of what your show contributed to American discourse? Do you get humbled by that? Do you get shocked by it?

Cavett: Right now, I feel really good. (Laughs) When I think of the things you might have said, that's one of the best good ones. Yeah, you try not to think in terms of that, or you'll make yourself self-conscious about it. If somebody compliments you on your diction or your singing voice, suddenly, it clutches up. (Laughs) But I know there've been hundreds of rave reviews for these DVDs, and a theme in them often will be none of the things on this DVD could have happened today. And I don't know what they meant at first.

Tavis: We don't give people the chance to talk anymore.

Cavett: That's it. You have put your big finger on it, partly because if Dave Letterman has foisted upon him an actress whose name you don't know and figure everybody else does, and she comes out to great applause, and she talks about how excited she is about her exciting new movie and her exciting director, and how she's had an exciting nap on the way over, (laughs) it's just yuck.

And I know Dave suffers through them. And then she's off, and she hasn't really had time to reveal herself, which is just as well, in this case. (Laughs) But when - no names.

Tavis: Sure.

Cavett: But the other side of that coin is somebody like Harrison. Noel, not Noel Harrison. George Harrison. And Rex Harrison, now that we're mentioning Harrisons. Noel Harrison was on, and people had said, you're gonna try to do an hour and a half with Harrison? Good luck. And of course, he - that was a Welsh accent, but I'm sorry, I missed what I was after. (Laughs)

And at first, he was a little stolid and he was a little ungiving. And if it had been a 10-minute appearance, that would have been his impression. But because I had the luxury of seeing that he was a little nervous, maybe a little not sure how to go, I could relax him by relaxing myself. And not making that sound too important. By the end of that show, Harrison was one of the most interesting people you've ever met.

This was on the 'Rock Icons' one of these. We have others coming. People will be glad to know that Katherine Hepburn will be on the 'Hollywood Legends.' And then we're gonna have 'Great Minds,' with Tom Cruise. (Laughs) We haven't gotten anybody else for that, but he can probably fill it.

Tavis: (Laughs) On that note, the sissy that I am, my 30 minutes are up. I can't do 90 like Dick Cavett, but...

Cavett: You're not gonna sing "Am I Blue" with me?

Tavis: No, I'm not gonna sing 'Am I Blue' with you.

Cavett: Oh, Ray did. (Laughs)

Tavis: (Laughs) I will tell you that you are doing yourself a disservice if you do not pick up these DVDs that speak to Dick Cavett's legacy and genius.

Cavett: Wow.

Tavis: Mr. Cavett, an honor to have you on this program.

Cavett: I'm half convinced that you believe that. (Laughs) You are a gracious gent.

Tavis: It was believable, wasn't it?

Cavett: You're nice. People are gonna say, why couldn't you accept a compliment from him?

Tavis: Yeah, well, you take it and run, okay?

Cavett: Who's the last schmuck who called you Travis?

Tavis: (Laughs) That's our show for tonight.

Cavett: Bye-bye.

Tavis: You can catch me on the weekends on PRI, Public Radio International. Check your local listings. See you back here next time on PBS. Until then, good night from L.A. Thanks for watching. I'm Travis Smiley, (laughs) and keep the faith.