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Tavis: I'm pleased to welcome Senator Joe Biden back to this program. His distinguished career in the Senate began when he was just 30 years old. Now at 36 - no, just teasing. (laughs) He was just 29 at the time of his first election. He's now the ranking Democrat in the Senate on the Foreign Relations Committee, and unless he changes his mind, he will be a candidate for the White House in 2008. He joins us tonight from Wilmington. Senator, nice to have you back on the program, sir.

Senator Joseph Biden: Good to be back, Tavis, good to be back.

Tavis: Glad to have you. Let me start by getting your thoughts and analysis on what happened in the Senate today, vis a vis this gay marriage ban.

Biden: Well, exactly what everybody expected. It was just a sham. The idea that A, marriage is under assault, you got 45 states either passing Constitutional amendments, 19 of them, and the rest of them passing statutes saying that same-sex couples can't be married. You have a law that we voted on federally, the Defense Of Marriage Act, which I voted for, which is the standing law defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

This was a reflection of President Bush's dire poll numbers with his own hard right conservative evangelicals, and I just think while we're debating this, you got folks dying in Iraq, Darfur is going to the devil. We have a circumstance, we're not having any discussion about energy independence or energy alternatives. It's kind of sad, actually.

Tavis: How do you respond to people who say that the Senate deals on a number of public policy fronts on any given day, you guys are dealing with all kinds of legislation. Why does Joe Biden label this, my word here, not yours, a diversionary tactic as opposed to a very real issue on the part of those persons who believe in it?

Biden: Well, three reasons. One, we voted on it before, and everybody is recorded as where they stand. Two, not even 50 out of 100 Senators think it's worth bringing up. Three, it is clearly - there is no problem in terms of the existing federal statute being challenged, saying that you don't recognize marriage with same-sex couples and call it marriage.

It's kind of like, Tavis, what is the thing that's happening out there? This has been left to the states, 45 of the states have already said. Hey, look, you can't do this.

Tavis: But Senator, the White House would say what's happening, their word, their phrase, activist judges are rewriting the law.

Biden: Well, the law hasn't been rewritten. There's one case in Nebraska where it questioned the Nebraska Constitutional amendment. It's gone to the circuit court of appeals. There's been no decision on it. It's a little bit like having a full-blown fire drill when there's no fire, except we've had the fire drill three or four times already.

But here's a larger point. Just take a look at what the Republican-led administration is doing now. Here we've been in the fewest days in session that we've been in the 33 years since I've been a Senator, I believe that to be true. Number one. Number two, have you heard any discussion about our energy problem? Have you heard any discussion in the United States Senate about the war in Iraq?

Have you heard any debate on the floor of the United States Senate about Iran? Have you heard any discussion about the carnage going on in Darfur? We're gonna go from this amendment to vote again on the flag amendment. On the flag amendment. Now, they're both worthwhile things to vote on.

Tavis: I was just about to...

Biden: But do you think the American people think they're the most important things we should be dealing with? While the middle class is shrinking?

Tavis: I was just about to ask you if you think that gay marriage issue is a diversionary tactic. We're about to get more of this, are we not, with the vote on the flag and the repeal of the estate tax, etcetera?

Biden: Absolutely. Look, we've voted on the flag a number of times. I'm the guy that wrote the flag statute 10 years ago, 12 years ago, that was declared unconstitutional. And if you want a flag amendment, there's an easy way to get it. I don't think you need one. But if you wanted one, you could say you can't burn the flag.

Instead, they have this amendment they keep bringing up every year designed not to pass but to make an issue. It says, you cannot desecrate the flag. What does desecrate mean? You can only desecrate something you can consecrate. And the fact of the matter is, you have a circumstance here where desecrate leaves the decision of who you're going to arrest for doing something with a flag to the local police officer.

And if a woman wears a string bikini that's a flag on it, and you see them in stores and advertised, is that desecration? Is it desecration to put a flag decal on the side of an ice cream vendor's machine? It's kind of silly. And again, and then we're gonna vote on, we have a real problem about inheritance tax, right?

So few people pay an inheritance tax to begin with. The present law is going to allow up to $8 million, the first $8 million that, in fact, you inherit to be tax-free. You're covering just an infinitesimally small part of the population. And what are we doing that for?

Tavis: All right. So let's talk about some of the issues that your colleagues on the other side of the aisle don't want to address that I and my listeners are certainly interested in. Let me start with Iraq. We had on this program last night, in fact, a conversation, of course, about the three investigations going on in these three different locales in Iraq, vis a vis what the Marines did or did not do. You're on the Foreign Relations Committee. What are you guys gonna do about this?

Biden: We're gonna make sure that there is a full-blown investigation, and that whoever is responsible, if it turns out to be what it appears to be, that there be people who are held accountable. We, our military, has to set the example for the world. And we have to hold the people in the highest offices responsible for this.

And I called on Sunday for Rumsfeld's resignation. He knew about this last February. We're now basically only hearing about it now. Look, you heard the President Of The United States say one of the serious mistakes that he made was not reacting to Abu Ghraib. Right after the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, I went down to see him.

And I suggested to him that he close the prison and bulldoze it to the ground. Take bulldozers and bulldoze it to the ground to demonstrate to the Arab world how reprehensible we thought the action was, and to bulldoze down the prison where Saddam Hussein conducted all his torture. It was required in my view to demonstrate our disdain for what happened.

A similar kind of message has to be sent to the Arab world or, guess what, the 99 percent of the American soldiers who are in harms' way are going to become the victims of the backlash of this response.

Tavis: And yet, Senator, I believe in you and I believe in your good intentions, but I also know how reality works. And at the end of the day, as was discussed on this program last night, there are different spanks for different ranks. And even when you say those higher up...

Biden: You got it.

Tavis: As you know, when you say those high up the chain ought to be held responsible, it never seems to be happen that way.

Biden: No, not in this administration, it doesn't happen. Let me point out to you that the only people who've ever been fired in this administration are people that turned out to be right. They fired General Shinseki, saying we needed 300,000 troops. They fired the Lawrence Lindsey, conservative economic advisor, saying that it would cost a couple of hundred billion dollars.

The only people that get held accountable in this administration are people who turn out to be correct. The people who said the right thing in opposition to the policy of the administration. This is the least accountable administration of the seven Presidents with whom I've served, and it quite frankly is one of the reasons why the President, I believe, is in so much trouble.

The American people, including Republicans, have figured out that this is not a competent, not a competent administration. And, look, look, Tavis, the whole notion here is the notion of Democracy is accountability. Without accountability, you have no credibility. And so, we're just undermining our own troops. We're undermining the United States.

And the administration seems not to have any learning curve. Were I in charge of this operation, and many others, including Republicans, these guys would be fired by now and the highest ranking officers having direct command would, in fact, be responsible. Whatever happened to the notion of the gentlemanly thing to do? Whatever happened to the notion of nobility? Where you stand up and take responsibility?

Tavis: Let me move from Iraq in the time I have left right quick to Iran. There are those in Washington, to your point, on the left and the right who believe what we're witnessing now in Iran may offer a glimmer of hope. Your thoughts?

Biden: It does. It is a sea change in this administration. Senator Lugar, the conservative Republican and I, and Senator Hagel of Nebraska called for direct talks with the Iranians. In my case, over three years ago. The administration finally has come to this point that the Europeans have been pressing them to come to for the last year and a half.

And this is good news for the Secretary Of State. She won a serious internal fight and battle over Mr. Cheney and Mr. Rumsfeld. It does hold some promise. But now we'll see whether or not the administration is prepared to follow through. I think that there is still an opportunity to work out an arrangement with the Iranians whereby they cease and desist from their operation, in return for which they're allowed to become more a part of the community of nations. I think that's still possible. This is a positive step.

Tavis: Let me add right quick, I jumped right into that, assuming that everybody knows what we're talking about. I assume that many of you do. Of course, we're talking about Iran and their nuclear program. But the Senator and I jumped right into that, making an assumption that we should not have made.

Biden: I'm sorry, (laughs) I should have been more specific.

Tavis: No, no. No, believe me, no, I made the assumption by not setting you up properly. That said, I got 45 seconds left. I will set you up properly for this. So are you ready for this campaign?

Biden: I am ready for this campaign. There's so much at stake here, Tavis. I think that the American people are ready to make real, real sacrifices to make this country better. They're not squeamish, they just lack the leadership. They lack the leadership of someone telling them how we deal with our energy crisis, how we deal with our educations, how we deal with healthcare, how we deal with foreign policy. They're ready. They're ready. I'm absolutely convinced of it.

Tavis: Well, I look forward to talking to you in the coming months as we move toward election 2008. And we will talk about some issues in the coming days.

Biden: Any time. It's always an honor to be on with you. Thank you.

Tavis: Nice to have you on. Senator Joe Biden, Democrat, of course, of Delaware, 2008 candidate for the White House. The conversation already underway. Up next on this program, actor Jon Favreau and the number one movie in America, "The Break-Up." Stay with us.