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Tavis: Pleased to welcome Tim Russert back to this program. In addition to his duties as moderator of "Meet the Press,' he's also a best-selling author. His latest book debuted at number two on the 'New York Times' best seller list last Sunday. Not bad. The book is called "Wisdom of Our Fathers, Lessons and Letters from Daughters and Sons.' It is the follow up to another 'New York Times' bestseller, 'Big Russ and Me.' Tim Russert joins me tonight from New York City. Mr. Russert, nice to have you back on this program, sir. (Laughs)

Tim Russert: Pleasure to be with you, Tavis.

Tavis: I was saying to my staff here, it's not often that you get a chance to scoop "Meet the Press' with the moderator of "Meet the Press.' Let me guess, go out on a limb here, hm, hm, this Sunday's lead subject on "Meet the Press' might be, say, Iraq?

Russert: How do you do it? (Laughs) Got me.

Tavis: Yeah. So on a serious note, what do you make of this surprise visit by the president to Baghdad after the Camp David meeting?

Russert: Well, it's an attempt, Tavis, to link policy, politics, and public relations. The president realizes that the American people are losing patience with the war in Iraq, and that he has to buy time. He has to keep them more patient. And he hopes, by meeting with the Iraqi leader, he is showing the Iraqi people that they have a leader who can bring others from around the world, including the President of the United States, to their country.

And that hopefully, the Iraqis will then sign up for their new national security force in the quality and numbers that will secure the country, so American troops can come home. If you look at the clock, and all the polling data I have seen, the president, I think, probably has until the end of this year. And if Iraq has improved, the American people may say all right, it looks like we've turned the corner, we're making progress.

We'll give you some more time. If that's not the case, I think the call from both Democrats and Republicans by the midterm elections will be overwhelming for him to change course and do something different, particularly regarding the American troops.

Tavis: That's a fascinating read, Tim. I'd expect no different from you. What about the notion that it wasn't just an effort on his part to buy more time, but part of the selling on this ongoing war in Iraq is to somehow, somehow, try to convince the American people, since flying in on that ship saying mission accomplished didn't work, was this week's trip an attempt to convince the American people that we have, in fact, turned a corner in Iraq?

Russert: I think that would be overly optimistic. The president would love to make that impression, but when you saw the way his staff was outfitted, if you read how the maneuvers the plane had to make going into Iraq, he was there but six hours, it's still not a very safe place, particularly in those areas around Baghdad, the Sunni Triangle. And so, what the president has to do is saying that Zarqawi being killed, and this new, strong Iraqi prime minister are two very significant steps in the war.

I agree with you in that we did not hear mission accomplished. We did not hear bring it on. It was much more, I thought, subdued, in terms of the war's gonna go on, the violence will continue. I think this was a stop gap measure to say to the American people, these are two positive, significant steps. Give me more time; I will get to my goal eventually of a secure and Democratic Iraq.

Tavis: Do you have any idea, as the moderator of "Meet the Press' and all the conversations you have had on Sundays that we all watch, do you have any idea what the definition is for victory, for success in Iraq is these days?

Russert: Well, that's a wonderful question, because it has changed. At first we were told that in terms of being greeted by, as liberators, and we would find weapons of mass destruction. That the oil production would pay for the war effort and the reconstruction. None of that has happened. We also, when described as a Democracy, it clearly is going to be more Democratic than when Saddam Hussein was there.

But the Iranian government has a huge influence on Iraq. And it is quite interesting to see what kind of constitution is finally implemented, in terms of women's rights, and in terms of just what role Islam, as a formal state religion, will play throughout that country. So it is much more limited, if you will, expectations than some of the rhetoric leading up to the war.

Tavis: One final Iraq question before we move on here, to your earlier point that the American public might give the president a little more time if it appears that things are moving in the right direction. The flip side of that is that they're gonna want something to happen if they sense that we are not making progress in Iraq. I guess the question is, who's going to pay?

The president ain't gonna be impeached, forgive my English. He's not going to run again, he can't run again. So, if there's hell to pay, politically, who pays for the President's bad policies in Iraq?

Russert: The American people, if they make that judgment, I believe, will vote in November of '06 against the Republican majority in the House and Senate. I don't know if they, Democrats will win both houses. If the election were held today, I think the Democrats have a very good chance winning the House back. A Republican Congressman, this is based on my reporting, went into a closed Republican caucus meeting, and said we're losing the 25 key battleground House seats because we asked an open-ended question.

When you think of a Republican Congressman, what comes to mind? And the voters said, the Iraq war and corruption. That's a problem. It's five months away. A lot can happen on the ground in Iraq. There could be another hurricane, and the administration could handle it better than they handled Katrina. Gasoline prices might fluctuate. I'm sure the Republicans hope downward.

But as we speak tonight, Tavis, the fact is Republicans are very fearful that they could lose one or both houses of Congress, and it's the cloud of Iraq that is hovering over this midterm election.

Tavis: Two other quick questions, then I wanna get to "Wisdom of Our Fathers,' the new bestselling book by Tim Russert. I don't know what you can say about this, Tim, but obviously it's a big news story. We now know that Karl Rove, the President's advisor, will not be charged. We also know that you were a part of this story. Scooter Libby, the former Vice Presidential advisor who has now been indicted in this case, unlike Mr. Rove, mentioned your name as one of his sources.

We now know that not to be the case. That said, though, what's your sense of the fact that Karl Rove will, in fact, according to special prosecutor Mr. Fitzgerald, not be indicted?

Russert: Well, there's a huge sigh of relief at the White House, because Karl Rove is critical to that White House operation. The president himself described Karl Rove as the architect of his presidential campaigns. Karl Rove will be masterminding the Republican effort to hold on to Congress in 2006. He has his Republican war paint ready, and he's in battle. There's no doubt about it.

And the White House people were very fearful that charges might be brought. The Libby trial will start in January. He did say he learned information about Joe Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, from reporters. Matthew Cooper, myself. But we have now seen in public court documents, according to the prosecutor, he spoke to at least seven government officials, including the vice president, about Valerie Plame and Joseph Wilson before he even talked to us.

His only call to me was a complaint call about something he had seen on cable TV. I wish he had passed information on to me. (Laughs) I was pretty low down on the food chain, I guess.

Tavis: How angry, if at all, does it make you, though, when somebody starts spinning your name in a story like this? It turns out not to be true. Did that ever make you think that your integrity and the success of your program might be attacked?

Russert: Well, the great thing about telling the truth, Tavis, you only have to tell it once.

Tavis: Yeah.

Russert: And you don't have to remember any other story. And I think once people saw what was playing out in terms of his selective memory, they'd made their own judgments. I'll just do what I've always done, is tell exactly what happened, and I'll let people and the court make their decisions. But I'm very confident that when all the facts are out there, they'll come to the same conclusion I have.

Tavis: Well, that's why people respect you. And speaking of telling the truth, I'm sure you'll tell me the truth on this last question before the book. A year ago, as you well know, the National Urban League put out a study about the lack of color on the Sunday morning talk shows. One need not be a rocket scientist to see that all the shows are hosted by White males, and overwhelmingly, the guest on those programs are White males.

What are you guys doing a year after that report to put some more color, surely there are folk who have something intelligent to say who happen not to be White males, on these Sunday morning talk shows, Tim?

Russert: Absolutely. I met with the authors of that report, and took it very seriously. The difficulty we have is a difficulty we have in the country. I had the first interview with Senator Barack Obama of Illinois before he addressed the Democratic convention and since he's been Senator, but there's one problem. There's only one African-American Senator.

And if you look at the House of Representatives, less than 10 percent of the House. We do interview people in positions like Condoleezza Rice or Colin Powell, when he was Secretary Of State or National Security Advisor, but the make-up of the leadership of the country happens to be primarily White. And those are the people that are on our show.

In terms of the panel, I was the person who brought Gwen Eiffel from the 'New York Times' to NBC News, where she was one of my best correspondents. And ironically, through her request, helped release her to go to PBS to become host of 'Washington Week.' She still agrees to come back with me on "Meet the Press' whenever she can.

I've recruited Eugene Robinson from 'The Washington Post.' I take this challenge very, very seriously. I think it's important that people hear a whole different variety of views, both culturally, politically, racially. I think diversity is something that is imperative; that the American people be able to see and make their own decisions. And we haven't stopped. We can do a lot more.

Tavis: We'll talk more about that later. "Wisdom of Our Fathers.' Congratulations again on the success of it coming out the gate. This book is, in part, a follow up, given all of the mail. I'm told some 60,000 letters you received from people who read the first book. And tell me what book number two is, "Wisdom of Our Fathers?'

Russert: Well, Tavis, after I wrote 'Big Russ and Me' about my dad who left school in the tenth grade to go fight in World War II, he was badly hurt when his B24 Liberator crashed, and he spent six months in a military hospital. Then he came home and with my mom started a second mission, and that was to raise and educate his four kids. He did it by working two full time jobs for 30 years, as a sanitation man and a truck driver.

I'm the first person to go to the college and law school, and I couldn't be host of "Meet the Press' but for all the hard work and sacrifice of my dad. When other sons and daughters read that story, they wrote me and wrote me and wrote me 60,000 letters and emails, as you said, saying let me tell you about my dad. And none of them talked about an expensive vacation or a material gift. They talked about the sacrifice.

The words of encouragement. The presence. The time. The commitment he made. And I put those together, and the response has been extraordinary. Because people realize that this Father's Day, they can give a book to a dad which says Dad, thank you. Thank you for all you've done for me. I intentionally left the front page in the book blank, so that sons and daughters write their own letters to their own dad.

And I can't think of any better gift than to get a book of, looking at life through the eyes of sons and daughters about fatherhood, and then a personal and memorable letter from your own son or daughter. For young dads, it's a roadmap. How to get it right. What really is important in a kid's life. They watch, they see, and remember everything. It's better to see a sermon than it is to hear one, and that's the challenge for dads.

Tavis: There's a great story that opens up this book. I'm almost moved to tears reading this story myself, about Luke, your son, and the tattoo. Can you tell me the story right quick?

Russert: I can, Tavis. Christmas Eve, we came home from midnight mass, and I had wondered if my son had read the book and had taken the lessons of hard work and accountability and respect and civility. And suddenly, my wife said you won't believe this. He has a tattoo. I said, 'What? He promised me that he would talk to me before he ever did it.' (Laughs)

So I said, 'Lift up your arm.' He said no. I said, 'Lift up your arm.' And he lifted up his arm, and there in little purple type was TJR. My dad's name was Timothy Joseph Russert; mine's Timothy John Russert. And he got misty-eyed and said, 'After I read your book, Dad, and how hard Grandpa worked, and all the sacrifices, and how you grew up and earned your way through school, I always wanted to have you and Grandpa on my side.'

And it hit me so hard, Tavis, I just went down on that chair, and I looked up. I said, 'That's the nicest tattoo I've ever seen.' (Laughs) But we're bonded by blood, and we're bonded by a book, and I guess now we're bonded by a tattoo. But for me it was an affirmation of him where he said, 'Dad, I get it. I know who I am, where I came from. I'm grounded. And I respect and love you guys. And I'm gonna carry on, I hope, in the proud Russert name.' And there's no greater gift he could ever give me.

Tavis: That's the moderator of "Meet the Press.' You always get the last word. I got 30 seconds; I'll give you the last word here on this Father's Day week. What is the best thing about being a father, Tim Russert?

Russert: The unconditional love that you feel towards a child, and the opportunity to influence, shape, instill in a child the basic values, virtues, that are so important to us, and watch them grow and prosper. It's so great to get to know your child as an adult as well, because you can actually become a friend with them, as well as love them to death. They're always, always loved, but they're never, never entitled, Tavis. That's the secret to life.

Tavis: (Laughs) It's always great to have a conversation with him. Tim Russert, moderator of "Meet the Press.' The new book, "Wisdom of Our Fathers, Lessons and Letters from Daughters and Sons.' Tim, it's always an honor to have you on the program.

Russert: It's a real pleasure and honor to be with you, Tavis.

Tavis: Thank you, Tim. Up next, actor Luke Perry. Stay with us.