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• Sen. Obama's official site
• Time cover story on Sen. Obama
• Article on Sen. Obama
• About The Audacity of Hope
• Sen. Obama in The New Yorker

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Tavis: I'm pleased to welcome Barack Obama back to this program. The Illinois Democrat is serving his first term in the U.S. Senate, but already there is much talk about bigger plans. In addition to stumping for candidates around the country, this fall, he's out with a new book called 'The Audacity of Hope, Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream.' He joins us tonight from on the road, on tour in Phoenix, Arizona. Senator Obama, an honor, sir, to have you on this program once again.

Sen. Barack Obama: Great to see you, Tavis. Hope you're doing well, man.

Tavis: I'm doing well. Glad to have you on. I have been on book tour myself; I landed back here in Los Angeles last night, prepared to come to work today to talk to you. And lo and behold, I land and I've got, like, 35 messages. I did not see 'Meet the Press' yesterday, but I had to get a copy of it today, because everybody was saying you have to see what Barack said on 'Meet the Press.' So, you realize now what you did yesterday.

Obama: Yeah, all I did was (laugh), I guess - all I did was tell the truth in response to a direct question. And it was funny. Russert actually told me afterward, he says, 'I just think folks aren't used to hearing that on the show.' And here's what happened. I'm on the show, and I'm talking to him about the upcoming elections, and about the book, and what I've been writing.

And he was doing his usual thing. And then he says, 'Look, nine months ago you were on this show and you said you weren't running for president. And now you've been traveling around the country, are you thinking about it?' And I said, 'Yes, I'm thinking about it.'

Obviously, there have been a lot of things that have happened over the last nine months. That doesn't mean I'm doing it. And it doesn't mean that I've thought about it with the seriousness and the depth that I think is required. And so, I simply acknowledged the fact that given the conversations that have been taking place, it would be foolish of me to pretend that somehow I hadn't thought about it. But to let people know that my main focus is this election, which is gonna be one of the most important elections in the country. And after November eighth, after November seventh, I'll have some time to ponder whether something like that is even realistic.

Tavis: Now, I've known you for a long time. You and I have been friends for a lot of years. I must tell you, respectfully, with an answer like that, perhaps you belong in the United Nations as ambassador, and not in the U.S. Senate. (Laugh) That was the best non-answer I have ever heard, brother.

Obama: Tavis, I am telling you the truth, which is that my whole focus right now has been on this election, and this book, getting this book done. As you know, writing a book is no joke. And doing the work that I'm supposed to be doing as a U.S. Senator, and representing my constituents in Illinois. I would be the best PR person on earth if I could have engineered the series of conversations that have been taking place over the last several months.

And at some point, when you're asked the question often enough, you figure well, let me just go ahead and tell people how I'm actually thinking. But I wanna emphasize what I just told you, and what I told Russert yesterday, which is the presidency is a unique position. It's not like you thinking about am I gonna take that sales job in Omaha. It is something that consumes you; it consumes your family.

The process of running for that office is ridiculous in how it's structured. And so it's not something that you do just for fun, or just 'cause you think it would be neat to be president. You've gotta have a reason to do it, and you've gotta do a gut check about that. And that requires time and energy and focus, and I don't have that right now.

Tavis: I'm glad you said that, because one could argue - I'm not making the argument; I'm just playing devil's advocate. I want your thoughts on this. One could argue that were you to get in the race, it might not be because Barack Obama has the fire in the belly, but because a certain segment of the American population forced this brother, coerced him, pushed him, talked him into running, which, to your earlier point, doesn't get it done.

You've gotta have the fire in the belly. So what do you say to people who might think that if the guy wants to run, he ought to say he wants to run, but don't let people push you into something like this?

Obama: I think they're exactly right. And look, this is a high-class problem to have, so I'm flattered with the attention, and I'm flattered with the fact that what I've been saying, both in my speeches and traveling and in this book, has resonated with the American people. That's why I'm in politics. If I was shy and bashful, then I wouldn't be in it. But you're exactly right, that this is not something that you do because it's just there, 'cause it's never just there.

And even if it was just there, in terms of getting elected, the job itself is so profound, and you are saying to the American people, 'I'm gonna give my life over to you.' And you can know that I'm not gonna think about anything except your problems. That you have to feel that you are prepared in a very internal conversation between you and your maker, and your family. And that's not something that I would do lightly, or just because there was a lot of press attention right now.

Tavis: Let me ask one other question about this ostensible, or potential run, or consideration of a run. I wanna get right to the book, that's why I have you on, and not to spend all night talking about the hearsay about whether you might run. One last question, though, with a quick preface. I get concerned, with all the people who are asking you to consider running, I really get scared, personally, (laugh) I get concerned and humored at the same time when I see Republicans, when I see conservatives on the pages of 'The New York Times' in their columns, not calling no names here, David Brooks. When I see people like Brooks on the other side saying that Obama ought to run, that kind of concerns me.

I only raise that because I wanna get back to your earlier point about the process. So, since you've said now to Russert and to me that you need some time after November seventh, after the book tour, after the midterm elections, to even think about this, can you share with me what the process might be, or what the process will be that contains or offers a platform for you to think about running?

Obama: Well, I haven't even thought through the process to think it through. But I think that obviously, it's gonna involve having conversations with people who I respect, who I think understand what's involved, and who understand this process. I think I need to take a look at what message do I have that would be unique, and am I the right messenger for it?

Most profoundly, I'd have to talk to Michelle and my two little girls, and find out whether this is something that they're signed up for. And that - my wife has been my closest friend, my closest advisor. And as you know, Tavis, she's not somebody who looks to the limelight, or even is wild about me being in politics. And that's a good reality check on me. When I go home, she wants me to be a good father and a good husband. And everything else is secondary to that.

Tavis: And get rid of the ants in the kitchen. (Laugh)

Obama: (Laugh) She wants me to get rid of those ants in the kitchen; she wants me to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher at night, so she doesn't have to do them when she wakes up in the morning. Those are the criteria by which I am judged at home.

Tavis: Yeah. Let me jump to the book, 'The Audacity of Hope.' I like the title. I like anything that speaks to the notion of hope. I think hope is a powerful way to convince people that things can be better. That said, tell me how you chose, how you came upon, this title, 'The Audacity of Hope.'

Obama: Well, first of all, before I talk about my book, I want everybody to know that Tavis has got a great book out right now. (Laugh) And he was pointing out that here he is plugging my book at a time when he's got one out. So, everybody go out and buy Tavis' book. In fact, you can, I think, get a package deal, a discount (laugh) if you buy them both.

Tavis: You know what? I hope that your saying that just now does for my book what Chavez did for Noam Chomsky at the U.N. But that's another issue.

Obama: But 'The Audacity of Hope.' You know my pastor, Jeremiah Wright, Jr.

Tavis: Sure.

Obama: Of Trinity United Church of Christ. About 18 years ago, when I was a community organizer, I was working on the south side of Chicago, trying to work with churches to figure out how we could rebuild communities that had been devastated by steel plant closings. And I remember I was working with Trinity, but I wasn't a member yet. And I attended one Sunday, and Pastor Wright had this sermon titled 'The Audacity of Hope.'

And his basic premise was simple. He said look, it's easy to be cynical. It's easy to despair, because there's so much evidence of hardship and heartbreak and war and famine all across the world and in our own communities, and oftentimes hardships in our own lives. But what is truly audacious, what takes risk and boldness, is to hope. And I always loved that idea, because I think it's true.

If you hope for something without acknowledging all the challenges and difficulties in front of you, then you're just being stupid or blindly optimistic. But when you're able to say - look, we've got real problems with 46 million uninsured in this country, or children who can't read and aren't graduating from high school, much less college, or a lack of an energy policy that leads us to fund both sides of the war on terrorism, or a war in Iraq that has cost countless lives and countless dollars, and yet has not made us more secure.

Despite all that, there's been a history in this country of us coming together in a common sense, practical way around our common values and ideals, and moving it on to the next level. That idea, I think, is intrinsic in the American experience, and we've been through tougher times. We can get through these times, if we just start looking at what those things are that bind us together as a people.

Tavis: Since this book title has theological underpinnings to it, I'm reminded, as you talk now, Barack, or Senator Obama, forgive me, of the scriptural text that says, 'Now faith,' - you know it well - 'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' That works for those of us who happen to be believers as a spiritual underpinning, as the reason why we should have hope against all odds.

But everyday people who don't come out of that sort of theological background, or have that kind of theological understanding, need reason to believe. So how do you talk about the audacity to hope absent what many people see in this society today as a reason to believe? Does that make sense?

Obama: Well, absolutely. And what I tell them, first of all, I do think that the American people, whether they believe in a Christian god or Muslim god or Jewish god, or are non-believers, they do believe in Dr. King's wonderful phrase that, 'The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.' I think that that is something intrinsic in the American spirit.

And there's enormous resilience - when I travel around the country and I write about stories in this book of meeting young women in East St. Louis who, the whole family didn't even graduate from high school. And already had kids when they were teenagers, and are running out of student loans, but are finding a way, out of no way, to go to college and be the first in their family to graduate.

Or guys who have lost their jobs, lost their pensions, lost their healthcare, but are determined to figure out how they're gonna support their families, and may be driving three hours to another town every day, back and forth, to just make ends meet, or taking on two, three jobs.

There's a sense of resilience and hopefulness. Here's the problem, is that our government has not been engaged with those people to say, 'Here's how we're gonna partner with you.' And that's why I think this election on November seventh is so important. Because whether it's on healthcare, energy, job growth, funding college educations, on all these issues, we can make progress if we stop with this ideological, absolutist approach that the Bush administration has taken, and focus on common sense, pragmatic solutions to some of our problems.

And I think what's interesting in this election, as I'm traveling around the country, it's not just Democrats who are hungry for that. Independents are hungry for it, which is why generally, Democratic candidates are doing so well. But there are a lot of Republicans in there, out there as well, who feel like their own party has been hijacked, and is not focused on the right things. And I think that presents a tremendous opportunity for those of us who believe in a progressive America.

Tavis: On the one hand, Senator Obama, it does, in fact, present an opportunity, I think you're right about that. On the other hand - let me play devil's advocate here - on the other hand, particularly if you're gonna reference King, and consider yourself, as I certainly do, part of the Kingian tradition, the only thing that one finds in the middle of the road are yellow stripes. Or maybe in Texas, a dead armadillo.

Obama: (Laugh) You stole that from Jim Highwater.

Tavis: Jim Hightower, yeah.

Obama: Jim Hightower.

Tavis: Jim Hightower, yeah. But you've gotta have the courage of your convictions to say something that not everybody else is saying. And in a world where everybody is rushing to the middle, including Democrats trying to rush to the middle, what makes the message in 'The Audacity of Hope' different than what everybody else is saying, which is let's get to the middle, as opposed to standing with courage to be a truth-teller?

Obama: Well, I think that the Democratic Party and progressives generally have gotten confused in getting trapped in this debate about are you liberal or are you centrist? I'm not interested in being a centrist or rushing to the middle, in the sense of just splitting the difference with a radically ideological Bush administration. And that's how I think we got into trouble in many instances, was we just kept on splitting the difference until you find out you don't stand for anything, you just keep on compromising.

There have to be some core principles that we believe in. I think that given how much money we spend in America on healthcare, we should have universal healthcare. Now, I'm agnostic on how we achieve that, in the sense that if you are interested in free market solutions, and you can explain to me an efficient way through markets-based programs to make sure that everybody's got healthcare, I'm not gonna be opposed to that just because it's not a government-run program.

I may be skeptical; you may have to prove to me how it is that you expect to provide healthcare to everybody. But I'll be open-minded to any ideas. What I won't compromise is the goal, which is universal healthcare for everybody. And that, I think, is the approach that we need to take. I'm less concerned whether something is considered strictly liberal or conservative.

I want results. And if we can achieve results, then I think that you can mobilize people across a whole host of different party labels. But what I won't do is compromise on the goal. And making sure that they're measurable results to achieve that goal.

Tavis: Talking about hope, at first glance, at first listen, certainly inspires people and it empowers people. But help me understand how you juxtapose 'The Audacity of Hope' with what seems to be working today, which is the exact opposite, which is the selling of fear. I can make a strong case that fear sells, Barack.

Obama: Well, I think November seventh is gonna be a wonderful test. Because what I'm seeing around the country, Tavis, is that the old playbook of fear-mongering is not working in this election. That ad with Osama Bin Ladin, and immigrants climbing over fences, doesn't that just seem tired? It seems exhausted. It seems spent. The American people right now, they're thinking, 'Well, I really want answers.' I think the American people are in a serious mood right now, in terms of how we're gonna achieve energy independence, how we're gonna give everybody basic healthcare coverage, particularly children.

How are we gonna help folks finance college educations, and what are we gonna do about Iraq, to get our troops home? And in some ways, I think partly the experience of going through this Iraq war, where the administration did not lay out the truth and the facts about what would be involved, and people's disenchantment with that has created a no-spin zone in this election that I think is very powerful. And that's why, despite record spending by Republicans in all these races, you're seeing them still lagging behind the Democrats.

Tavis: But that goes back to that earlier question I raised, Senator Obama, with all due respect. You, though, have consistently, on this tour, said that you don't think Bush is a bad guy. And I think I understand the point you're trying to get at. But that's what I mean by courageously telling people the truth. Here's a guy who many people now believe, looking at the evidence, that has lied, that has spied, certainly spun, where this Iraq war is concerned. But you say he's not a bad guy.

Obama: No, no, you know a phrase we use in church, hate the sin, love the sinner?

Tavis: Right.

Obama: And the principle that I am simply trying to make both in those comments and in the book where I've got a little vignette about talking to Bush, and he gives me a little hand sanitizer, (laugh) and says, 'This'll keep colds away.'

Tavis: It's a great story, yeah.

Obama: 'This'll keep colds away.' And I don't consider George Bush a bad person in the sense that he - I think he is genuinely trying to do what he thinks is best for the country. What I am simply saying is that he has been wrong on most issues, and that this administration has not been willing to base their decision-making on facts rather than ideology, which has created tremendous damage.

We've gotta hold him accountable, and this administration accountable, and this Congress accountable for the damage that they've created. But what I do warn against, both in the book and I try to apply in my own life, is the demonization of the other side, or losing the capacity to disagree without being disagreeable. Because part of my message is if we really wanna do something, losing the capacity to disagree without being disagreeable.

Because part of my message is if we really wanna do something about universal healthcare, it's not gonna be enough just to get the 50 or 50 point one percent of Democrats to somehow push that through. You've gotta have a mandate, which means that they're gonna have to have some Independents and some Republicans working with you, saying, 'You know what? This makes sense.'

And that's gonna be true, even if we get back the Democratic House and a Democratic Senate, and as Democratic president. We've gotta build a larger consensus that allows us to move boldly on these issues. Otherwise, we're gonna be caught up in the same constant conflict that we've been in the last decade. And that is to the advantage of conservatives who don't believe in government. See, they benefit from folks feeling cynical about government, and nothing getting done. If you're progressive, we can't afford the public feeling cynical.

Tavis: Let me ask you, I got about a minute to go, and this is unfair to ask you with a minute to go. You talked about it and you write about it brilliantly, I think, and passionately in the book. But it'd be unfair, with all the hype that's already being built around your potential run, to not ask you, given who you are, what you say about how we deal with what I view as the most intractable issue in America, the issue of race.

Obama: Well, I've got an entire chapter devoted to it, and I can summarize my views pretty quickly. Number one, there's no doubt that things have improved since we were children, Tavis. We ourselves are evidence of that. But better is not good enough. We've still gotta make enormous strides. And what I think is the most important area where we have not made serious efforts is when it comes to serious inner-city poverty.

We have not mobilized around doing something about that. And it is my contention that if we were serious about that, if you didn't have disproportionate numbers of African American males in prison, in the drug trade, jobless, and so forth, that a lot of the other racial conflicts that we have would not completely be eliminated, 'cause there's always gonna be some prejudice, given our history.

But it would be lessened drastically. And so I specifically say we've gotta get into these inner-city communities, do what it takes to educate our kids, put ex-offenders back to work, make the investments now, because the benefits across the economy would be enormous, and it would make all of us much more unified as a country.

Tavis: Got 20 seconds to go. Since you have raised more money than anybody else in this election cycle for your Democratic colleagues, how hopeful are you, speaking of 'The Audacity of Hope,' that Democrats can take back either or both Houses of Congress?

Obama: I think the Democrats have an excellent chance of winning both chambers. I think it's gonna be critical that Democrats maintain their intensity, and that we close the deal in the last week by talking affirmatively about what we plan to do, once in office, around providing healthcare to kids, or lower college loan rates for students, or dealing with the energy problem, or being very specific about it's time to start a phased withdrawal out of Iraq. If we do that, an affirmative message, I think we'll do very well on November seventh.

Tavis: As if you did not know, his name is Barack Obama. (Laugh) He is the Democratic senator from Illinois. He has a new best-selling book out called 'The Audacity of Hope, Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream.' Barack Obama, it is always an honor, sir, to have you on this program. Congratulations on what I know is gonna be a long-term best seller, and thanks for the opportunity to talk to you again.

Obama: Tavis, always a pleasure.

Tavis: Thank you, sir.

Obama: Bye-bye.

Tavis: That's our show for tonight. Catch me on the weekends on PRI, check your local listings. Good night from Los Angeles, and as always, keep the faith.