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• Audio: Catch a Fire at KCET Cinema Series
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• Article on Mr. Chamusso

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Tavis: Tim Robbins and Derek Luke star in the new film 'Catch a Fire,' which is based on the remarkable real-life story of Patrick Chamusso. In the early 1980s, Patrick helped wage war against the apartheid power structure of South Africa. In 1981, he was arrested, brutally tortured, and jailed for nearly 10 years. In the movie, he's played by one Derek Luke. Tim Robbins portrays a member of South Africa's brutal police security branch. The film opens Friday around the country. Here now, a trailer for 'Catch a Fire.'

[Film Clip]

Tavis: Tim, nice to see you again.

Tim Robbins: Nice to be here.

Tavis: Glad to have you. Derek, nice to see you.

Derek Luke: Yes.

Tavis: And congratulations on your - in case - I don't know if you know this or not, but your business is, like, all over the Internet. The word is that you and your wife are expecting your first baby.

Luke: Yes, we are.

Tavis: So you're confirming that now.

Luke: I'm confirmed, confirmed. (Laugh) Confirmed.

Tavis: I read it on the net, but it had to be confirmed, so congratulations on baby number one.

Luke: Oh, thank you.

Tavis: And Patrick, what an honor to meet you.

Patrick Chamusso: Please.

Tavis: I'm glad to have you here.

Chamusso: Thank you so much.

Tavis: This movie n not the movie, the movie's powerful - but the movie is based, of course, on a very real life, powerful and poignant story. Let me start trying to put some context to this by going back to 1980. You're working at a refinery.

Chamusso: Yes.

Tavis: An explosion happens in the refinery.

Chamusso: Yes.

Tavis: We find out later the ANC is behind, the African National Congress, behind the explosion.

Chamusso: That's true.

Tavis: But you are wrongfully arrested for your connection to this first explosion; there are two. We'll come back to explosion number two in a moment. Take me back to 1980, and what you recall about this explosion at the refinery where you were working.

Chamusso: I was arrested. They thought it was me. Because I was the last man to go in and to come out. After some 10 seconds, I came out from the refinery, and then the explosion took place. So when they checked in the morning, they found that it was me who went in, and I was the last driver to go in and come out.

Tavis: So you're the last one in, the last one out.

Chamusso: Yeah.

Tavis: And so they suspected you were connected to this.

Chamusso: Yes. As I was driving a truck, they thought that the people who blowed it, they were in the truck. I went in and dropped them, and they placed the bomb, and came out with them.

Tavis: So you get arrested, wrongfully. And what happens when you get arrested?

Chamusso: I got six months in prison without a trial. Because I didn't know even the ANC. They didn't get anything from me. After that, they just released me. They said, 'No, go home.' Then I asked, 'What about these six months? What about my wages?' They say, 'No, go and talk to your boss.' I didn't even bother to go to him, because he wouldn't give me. It wasn't him who arrested me; it was the police.

Tavis: So you're arrested wrongfully, you have nothing to do with this. Not only nothing to do with the explosion, you have nothing to do, even though you're a Black South African, you have nothing to do at the time with the ANC.

Chamusso: Yes, I didn't even wanted to join politics, yeah.

Tavis: So you're in prison for six months; they let you go. While you're in prison, though, you have an epiphany of sorts, and you figure that since I'm in here, wrongfully accused of something, and now that this issue has come to your, obviously, not just to your attention, but you're caught up in this now; now you start rethinking what this ANC is all about, yes? Tell me about those days in prison.

Chamusso: No, when I was in prison, I wasn't alone there. We were about eight of us, but I was the leader of them. They thought that I'm the one who's leading them. Then Zuko said, 'No, I think this is too much. I think one of us must go and join the ANC.' And I said, 'No, that one of us is me.' He said, 'No, I didn't say it is you, but I said one of us must go and join the ANC, because we are here in prison for the ANC, and we are not members of the ANC.'

We only listen to the Radio Freedom, yes. Then after they released Zuko first, and then the others who they spent about two or three months, the other ones. And I am the only one who spent six months. Then after that, I said 'No, enough is enough. I have to do something. I have to go and join the ANC and come back and fight.'

Tavis: So tell me about where you start in terms of reaching out to the ANC to learn about this very powerful political organization inside your country.

Chamusso: Well, I left South Africa to Maputo, which is Mozambique. Then I was taken to the ANC camp. It's where I started to learn everything, even to learn about myself, who I am, and what are my rights. Because at that time, I didn't know my right. I couldn't go from city to city or to drive wherever I want. Certain times, I couldn't go, therefore. And when I reached to the camp, I was taught all my right. I was explained all my rights, yeah. Then, I realized that no, it is true.

Tavis: This is a powerful story, because here's a guy who has no connection to the ANC, he is not involved, as it were, in this tumultuous political activity taking place in his country. He's wrongfully arrested and jailed, and while he's in jail, he has this epiphany. So now he wants to get connected to the ANC. So you go, you get trained, you do, in fact, get connected to the ANC.

Now the story gets even more interesting. I'm just trying to fast forward through this. Because after you get connected to the ANC, now you find yourself, in fact, planning an attack on another refinery.

Chamusso: No, the ANC found out that I was working at the refinery. Then J... Slovo, who was the chief of the military that day, he came to see me. And he asked me what is my sport first. I said, 'I'm a football player.' He said no, he liked football also. So, we talked about football. Then after that, he said, 'How was the explosion?' I said, 'No, it was big, but if we had hit the reactor, we would finish the whole plant.'

Then he asked if he could train me, can I go back and put (unintelligible) on the reactor. I said, 'Yes, I can.' Then he said, 'No, I will come back.' In three days, I was taken to Angola for training. Then I come back, he asked also, he said, 'Do you still want to go?' I said, 'Yes.' He asked, 'How many people do you want to take?' Because I thought this (unintelligible) bomb was something big, like that.

So I said, 'No, I'm going alone.' 'Why do you want to go alone?' I said the reason I want to go alone is that I don't want any mistake. Because now it's well-guarded. If I go with somebody who will make a mistake, we will never go inside. Then he said I was prepared. But at that time, the ANC was well-infiltrated by the enemy. Everyone knew that I was going, 'cause when I went for my passport in Swaziland, their spies were there.

And when I was told that I must reach the border at about 2:00, I asked this guy, 'Why 2:00?' He said, 'No, it's because 2:00, police are changing, and they must be hurry. And don't stop on the way.' I had a suspicion of this man. I said, 'No, okay.' I took the car. But when I was driving, I saw that they had civilians. And I stopped, I took all the explosives which were in the car, and then I hid them.

Then I went to the border. And when I reached the border, they went exactly there, and they were talking about me. They said, 'No, it's him.' But there's nothing there. 'But it's him, even the number plate, it's him.' But they couldn't find anything. So I went; I drive across the border. From the border, I also stopped and then changed the cars. I left that car, because they knew the car. So I left, and then I went on my way. But I knew that the enemy is behind me.

Tavis: There's so much to this story, and I'm trying to husband myself. I don't wanna give too much of the story away, Tim and Derek. But let me stop with Patrick for just a second and pull up, because I'm looking at the two of you just a moment ago while Patrick is talking, and you all know the story start to finish. You've not only seen the movie, I hear you guys are in the movie. (Laugh)

So you know this story extremely well, and yet I'm watching the two of you, and you seem to be mesmerized again, sitting next to him, listening to what he is saying. But you know the story already, Derek. Why listen so intently again?

Luke: Meeting Patrick was just, like, he became my hero. I was just so closed-minded to what was going on in South Africa, and I just think his choice for fighting for freedom was so much bigger than any choices I've made so far, and it challenges me. So as he was talking, there's still parts of the story that I know, but there's a lot that I don't know. So I'm just really intrigued by him.

Tavis: Intrigued is a good word. Let me offer another 'I' word. Intimidated. It's an intriguing story. Were you intimidated by the story? You pulled it off, but were you intimidated at first?

Luke: I was intimidated by the challenge of a new heritage, new culture, new language. 'Cause most people, when they leave here, they say, 'Hey, man, don't mess up the language.' So there was a lot of great actors that made great films in Africa, and that was the challenge.

Tavis: Tim, this is another piece of fine work by you. You're playing the bad guy this time, though.

Robbins: Yeah.

Tavis: That turns you on?

Robbins: I love the script, yeah. And I wanted to be part of it, regardless of whether I was good, bad or indifferent. I wanted to be part of this story. Part of Patrick's story. And to be able to tell this story to a lot of people is an honor and a privilege, especially the way it ends. And I don't wanna give away the ending, either, but Patrick, the choices he made and the path he took, are not your ordinary path.

Considering the amount of repression and amount of time that he spent in jail, to come out of it with the spirit of compassion, to come out of it like Mandela proposed, and the way South Africa is now, it's a pretty miraculous story. And the movie reflects this kind of thriller, this fast-paced drama. It's exciting. But usually with movies like that, you come to that last part, and you get this gratuitous revenge scene.

And the movie asks you to take a different path, which is, I think, more inspiring and more exciting. And that's the path that Patrick took, and that's the path that South Africa's on right now.

Tavis: Let me ask you, Tim, what you make of that, 'cause I've been fascinated by the same thing. I met Patrick for the first time what, when we started this program 20 minutes ago. He walks out here on the set, I meet him for the first time, and I'm just watching his demeanor, and I'm watching how he's ribbing Derek, and he's making jokes with you.

And he's just as jovial and personable and kind and compassionate. You pick up on that in 30 seconds of meeting the guy. I raise that only because back to your point, I am constantly amazed at how Mediva, how Mandela, how Patrick and others who I have met, who served time in Robben Island during this time, have come out with that sort of spirit intact. Mandela comes out and refuses to hate. He's still about love and compassion. And Patrick, obviously another example of that. What do you make of that? How do you read that?

Robbins: I read it as a highly enlightened person that we should be telling this story every day. This is a story that's a unique story, and I don't think it's ever happened in human history before, where you've come to the end of a war and a struggle that's lasted 30, 40 years, and you've come out with a leader coming out of prison after so much oppression that proposes the future that he proposed.

I don't think that's ever been done before. When I had the opportunity to meet him, I asked where that came from. And he just saw it as the only way forward. The only way. But Patrick can probably tell you better, because he knows Mandela much better than I do.

Tavis: As I said earlier, I didn't wanna give away too much of the story. There is a point in the movie at which Patrick ends up going back to jail. It's not just a six month stint, that's what Tim was referring to, all the time he spent in jail. He ends up going back to jail for a number of years, on Robben Island, as I mentioned at the top of the show, the same place where Mandela served.

So Patrick, let me take advice from my producer, Mr. Robbins, and ask you (laugh) how it is that you end up coming out? Why is your spirit so still intact?

Chamusso: Well, I was not the first prison on Robben Island. The first prison were Makana, Mandela. So when our leaders reached Robben Island, they set it up by structure, because they knew that somebody like me will go there. Or the others. Then they set it a political structure there, so that all the transformation went, I got it from that structure.

We did discuss political discussion there, even we discussed the future government, and we discussed also how are we going to handle our enemy? And we reached the point that no, we forgive them. Yeah, and then we let them living with us. It's what we did. And many people thought that when Mandela is released and all the political prisoners are released, maybe it's going to be a civil war.

But it didn't happen in South Africa, because we have a tested and trusted leadership. Whatever we do, we do collective. Even now, I'm living in the rural area, but next year, it's a national conference of the ANC. And the lower structure, where I am, is consulted also, on the top. So everything that we do, we do collective. So, the discipline that we have, we get it from that structure.

I cannot disappoint my leaders, and really, I cannot disappoint myself, because I agreed to take that decision. As I was walking towards (unintelligible), I saw that (unintelligible) to have done something, and I have met him before, in a petrol station. And I looked at him; he looked on the other side, so. Because I have forgiven him, and I didn't do anything. And I live with him.

Tavis: Back to Tim's point, one of the most powerful things that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime, and I say in my lifetime because I'm considering that it's 1980, as I said earlier, that Patrick gets arrested. 1980. I finished high school in '82. That's just, like, a few years ago. You lose sight of how recent this really n this is not civil rights history back in the fifties and the forties.

This is 1980 when this cat gets arrested for this. So you forget, again, that proximity; how close we really are to people behaving in this way. I've had the occasion on any number of trips, Derek, as I said to Patrick earlier, to go to South Africa. And I know what it was like when I walked on to Robben Island, and walked in that cell that Mandela spent those years in. You walked in that same cell.

Luke: Yes.

Tavis: What did you n if you can put it into words, I can't even describe it all these years later - what was that moment like for you, walking in that cell where Mandela stayed?

Luke: It was pretty intense. There was a part of the story of Patrick that I heard, it was about forgiveness, and I wanted to see it and kind of find the diamond myself. So, the ex-political prisoners give you a tour of Robben Island, and this man who mirrored Patrick's life, was actually sentenced to life. And I says, 'Well, how can you have such peace?' And he says, 'Because I was sentenced to life, and if I didn't forgive, hate would have killed me first.'

So he takes me into Robben Island, 'cause he says, 'I wanna prove my point to you.' He gives me this key, which is tarnished, and he asks me to open up a cell. Once I go in, tells me to lay down. He says, 'Are you comfortable?' And I says, 'No.' And he says, 'Well, this was the cell where Nelson Mandela laid, and he was taller than you.' And I says, 'Well, where is the bathroom; where's the loo?'

He says, 'There isn't any.' And he says, 'That's where he used the restroom.' And right at that point, it brought closure to who Patrick was. And also, inside the prison he said sometimes they would bring criminals from outside and put them against the men in the ANC, just to break their spirits. So to come out with that forgiving heart, to take the power from the oppressor by forgiving him was intense.

Tavis: Back to the point you raised earlier, Tim, about the fact that this may be n this is a one-of-a-kind story in the annals of history, for how our civilization advances after a period of tumult like apartheid. One of the most powerful things to me is that when the story changes, when Mandela is out, when apartheid gets crushed, the Black South Africans don't line up all the White folk and shoot them in the head.

They establish a TRC, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Come to the Commission; tell the truth, you are reconciled to South African society. If that ain't love, I don't know what is. I raise this to you specifically because you are known not just as a great actor, but as a human rights activist in this country and around the world. I was in a conversation the other day about whatever happened to love in public discourse. King, Mandela, Gandhi. Whatever happened to the notion of love in our public discourse? Having done a project like this now, you got thoughts on that?

Robbins: I do. Whatever happened to, well, love is a great question. We have so many leaders that lead with piety on their sleeves, and can't get their heads around the basic lessons of Jesus Christ. They're difficult ones, they're difficult challenges. Love your enemy? That's tough. Turn the other cheek? That's tough. Thou shalt not kill, from his father. That's a tough one, too.

But they're irrefutable statements. They're pretty simple. The question is, why can't we raise up to those challenges? And what disheartens me is to see people that claim to be spiritual, claim to be religious, that forget those essential lessons. And to see Mandela do what he did is to embody it. It's to embody that lesson. And whether it's Jesus Christ, or n that's the one I know about, 'cause I was raised Catholic. But every religion has that lesson in some way.

The idea of a larger compassion, a larger love. And it's a challenge, and it's the thing that I think we should all be aspiring to. And the fact that this movie takes us to that in the form of an action thriller... (Laugh)

Tavis: Yeah. (Laugh) I'll take it any way I can get it, these days. Anything that advances that conversation, I'm happy to take. I'm at the end of this conversation, but I could not let this conversation end - again, you don't wanna give the whole movie away - but in real life - let me put it that way, in real life, Patrick's life has a fascinating twist to it, even now. You have how many orphans that you and your wife?

Chamusso: I've got 90.

Tavis: Ninety.

Chamusso: Yes.

Tavis: That's what he does now. He and his wife take care of babies. Ninety of them.

Chamusso: Yes.

Tavis: In South Africa.

Chamusso: Yes, in South Africa, at (unintelligible). White River, in the area of (unintelligible).

Tavis: What am I supposed to say now? The show's over. Two Sisters. (Laugh)

Robbins: Just mention the name of it, so if anyone feels inspired to help out.

Chamusso: Yeah, it's www.twosisters.org.za.

Tavis: Two Sisters.org...

Luke: .za, yeah.

Chamusso: .za, yes.

Tavis: All right, there you go. Twosisters.org.za. Soon as I go off the air, in 41 seconds, hit it and see what you can learn about the work that Patrick is doing. What an honor to meet you, sir.

Chamusso: Please, thank you so much.

Tavis: Glad to have you here. Derek, good to see you. Tim, nice to have you back on.

Robbins: Thank you.

Tavis: 'Catch a Fire.' Go catch it.