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Tavis: Retired Major General Paul Eaton was in charge of training Iraqi forces in 2003 and 2004. He retired from the Army earlier this year after a 33 year career. His professional connection to the region is also a very personal one. His two sons are active duty military, one of whom served in Iraq, the other headed to Afghanistan early next year. He joins us tonight from Seattle. Major General Eaton, nice to have you on the program, sir.

Major General Paul Eaton: Tavis, great to be here, thank you very much.

Tavis: It's my delight to have you on. Let me start with your two sons. And I start there because it seems - my father was in the military for 37 years, so it seems so easy these days, certainly, for these conversations to devolve in bickering about public policy. We'll get to that, I promise, in just a moment. But that said, talk to me about how one navigates a life in the military where you have two sons, to say nothing of your own life, that's in harm's way?

Eaton: Well, I think the peak moment came for my wife when our one son, our younger son and I were in Iraq at the same time. And it made for a real long year and a half for her, total time. We were both there a year, but our younger son was there just a little bit longer. But it's interesting to note, one-third of the general officers have children in the military, and a very large percentage of that total sons and daughters population has been in Iraq or will be in Iraq. So the senior leadership of the Army has really committed, and committed in a very personal and family way.

Tavis: Let me tell you something that you already know, and I suspect most of the American public knows, as well, those numbers are stark and interesting to hear with regard to the sons and daughters of military personnel, because they contrast so starkly with the persons who are making decisions about what you all are doing. That is to say, the folk in the White House and the folk in Congress.

There are only literally like a couple of people, and I'm sure somebody's gonna call me on that, but I've seen the numbers, just a couple, just a few, who actually have or have had sons and daughters fighting in Iraq or in Afghanistan. I wonder, then, how different you think our policy might be were the sons and daughters of the folk who are making decisions in Washington on the front line in these places.

Eaton: Tavis, what you say is not lost on the military, and it's certainly not lost on the people of the United States who have sons and daughters in the armed forces of the United States. That's kind of the basis that Representative Rangel has pursued in his request that we take a look at the draft. Now, I do not personally favor a return to the draft. It would work very, very difficultly, when you get into the tyranny of large numbers of the available population.

But the fact that senior decision makers do not have a personal touch in the military, they do not have sons and daughters serving in the foreign policy decisions that they've embarked upon, is not lost on the military or the families of military.

Tavis: Let me move beyond, then, family matters, and talk about more public policy issues that I promised a moment ago. Let me start with the obvious question of the day, since everyone else seems to be debating it. Is there a civil war underway in Iraq?

Eaton: Tavis, I think it's worse than a civil war. A classic civil war, you can identify the leaders of the two or three or four factions, however many you've got to deal with. And if you can identify the leadership, you can identify a negotiation series of options. And right now, this thing has devolved into a terrible neighborhood on neighborhood, Shi'a on Shi'a, Shi'a on Sunni. It is worse than a civil war, it is decentralized, barbaric violence.

Tavis: You called for Secretary Rumsfeld's resignation before many others did. Obviously, we all know now that Secretary Rumsfeld is on his way out, has resigned officially. Too little, too late?

Eaton: Well, there are a lot of Republicans who are unhappy with the president that he dismissed Mr. Rumsfeld after this last election. There are those who - the conspiracy theorists would argue that the generals had calculated all this a long time ago to help the Democratic party. That didn't happen. We simply had enough of very poor leadership in this administration, in the Department Of Defense, that - and I'll speak for myself - that I had to speak out.

And I decided to speak out in March after I'd read the quadrennial defense review, the QDR, as it's known, that lays out the future budgeting and structure decisions for the armed forces.

Tavis: Can Mr. Gates, who we assume is the presumptive Secretary Of Defense, turn this around?

Eaton: I think Mr. Gates is a very good man. I've never met him. I've got a lot of input about him, and it's all positive. I think that Mr. Gates is a true patriot to come out of a very good job. To be the president of Texas A&M, to deal with that wonderful school in a wonderful part of the world, and step into the very difficult job that Mr. Rumsfeld is leaving him is a mark of a great public servant and a great patriot.

Tavis: So Mr. Bush is in the region. What are your hopes, if you have any, for what might come of this trip?

Eaton: We are finally getting to a diplomatic, coordinated approach. A coordinated diplomatic approach in the region. Long ago, the retired generals that said you have got to break out of a purely military mindset and get it into a diplomatic, political, economic approach, bring in the full weight of the United States power to bear. And we are finally engaging in an organized fashion with countries who have a vested interest in how this thing turns out, how this war turns out.

And to do it in Jordan could not be a better place. The king of Jordan, King Abdullah, is a particularly enlightened leader for just what we're talking about. And he will be very helpful, and so will the rest of the region leadership, when brought to the table, and to help the United States craft a way ahead in Iraq.

Tavis: Your criticism heretofore notwithstanding, do I take now from your comments of liking Mr. Gates and applauding the president for what he's doing at the moment, do I take from those comments that you think the president, post November elections, is now on the right track, moving in the right direction? Or am I over-reading your sentiment?

Eaton: I believe the president has admitted that we have got to take on a new approach. That what he has been doing, and what his Secretary Of Defense has been doing in the past is clearly a deficient policy that we have got to aggressively move down a bilateral, a bipartisan approach to working our way forward out of the mess that we've got right now in Iraq.

And the Baker-Hamilton Commission, I expect very bright members of this commission, a bipartisan commission, to help the country move down a path that has greater possibility of success.

Tavis: You must be a mind reader, General, 'cause I was just about to ask you about the Iraq study group. We now know that December sixth is the date that the report is scheduled to be released. You expect these bright persons, as you mentioned, to come up with some good ideas. I guess the question is, once the ideas are put forth, it's not like the president has not been exposed heretofore to other persons who have different ideas, who disagree with what he has been doing.

I can't imagine, as bright as these guys are, that any idea they're gonna come up with is something that somebody somewhere at some point has not said publicly in this debate about where we're going, or not going, as it were, in Iraq. So the question is, is the president going to listen to what he's going to be offered?

Eaton: Tavis, a great question, and you're right. What these men and women in the commission are going to advance is probably a synthesis of a lot of other discussions that have occurred already. But we now have a Democratic-controlled Hill, and we have the option, with the Senate and with the House, to pressure this administration to a more enlightened path than that which had been crafted by a president, vice president, and secretary of defense that move down a path of great arrogance, of great conviction, and basically suppressing the rest of the Cabinet and the rest of some of America's best and brightest that serve this nation very well, or would like to serve it better.

Tavis: Let me ask you, before we wrap up here, General, where we are as you see it with regard to training these Iraqi forces. I wanna close this question, because I began by letting the audience know that you were the guy, at one point in time, who was in charge of training these Iraqi forces. If the American public, I think, has heard anything, they've heard time and time again the president say that we're training the forces, that forces in Iraq are making progress.

And once they've gotten to a point where they can take over, that's when we'll start to leave, not a day before. To leave earlier would devolve into a catastrophe in Iraq. So the whole thing is hanging on this hook of the Iraqi forces being trained to a point where we can leave. I ask, then, where are we with regard to that mission, since everything seems to be resting on that principle?

Eaton: Tavis, two vectors on this. One, to treat the development of the Iraqi security forces with far greater urgency than this administration has treated it to date. We need far more quality trainers to go into it. I've mentioned in previous discussions a Lieutenant Colonel Doug Olivette who published an article in the 'Military Review' that calls for a way ahead to better advise the Iraqi security forces with far greater-sized units, battalion-sized units.

That effort, coupled with a fundamental increase in the equipping of this force, we have not dedicated the appropriate funds or the emphasis to equipping the Iraqi security forces. That's part of it. The other part is the sense of legitimacy that Iraqi security forces need to feel with a competent government. So we need to work with the prime minister and work with a political approach at the highest level in the Iraqi government, so that the young men in the Iraqi security forces feel that they are the legitimate source of power for this government to provide for the security of the nation.

Tavis: Well, I'm delighted, Major General, retired Army Major General Paul Eaton, delighted to have you on. And during this holiday season, we certainly send the best to you and your family, and pray for the safe return of both of your sons. And thank you for your insight. Glad to have you on.

Eaton: Tavis, absolutely my pleasure. Thank you very much.

Tavis: Thank you, sir. Up next on this program, actor Aaron Eckhart. 'Thank You For Smoking,' one of the most talked about films of the year. We'll talk to Aaron Eckhart in a moment, stay with us.