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Tavis Smiley: Good evening. From Los Angeles, I'm Tavis Smiley.
First up tonight, a conversation with award-winning actress Cybill Shepherd. From her early roles in seminal films like “The Last Picture Show” and “Taxi Driver” to groundbreaking TV shows like “Moonlighting,” she’s enjoyed a unique and successful career here in Hollywood. The Memphis native also enjoyed a long-term friendship with Elvis Presley. This year, she’s back on television in the critically acclaimed Showtime series, “The L Word.”
Also tonight, filmmaker Guillermo del Toro stops by. Earlier this week, his latest film, “Pan's Labyrinth,” was named best picture of 2006 by the National Society of Film Critics.
We’re glad you’ve joined us. That’s all coming up right now.
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She’s back on TV in the acclaimed Showtime series “The L Word.” The show airs Sunday nights at 10:00 PM. Here now, a scene from “The L Word.”
[Clip]
Tavis: Cybill, when the studio sent me that clip, I was at home watching it, and I played it back a couple of times, because I wondered whether or not we can be something that we’ve never actualized. That we can be – can we be something that we’ve never acted upon? So in that scene you say, “I'm a lesbian, but I never acted on it.”
I thought that was a strange, interesting phraseology.
Cybill Shepherd: Yes, well…
Tavis: What’d you think when you read it?
Shepherd: Well, I think that first of all, if we deal with the realm of fantasy, we know that we can fantasize about everything and we don't have to act on it. And fantasy’s kind of fair game. It doesn’t have to be politically correct. For me, I can see, since I'm an actor, I have to learn to try things on. I have to suspend my disbelief, and believe that whatever’s happening to the character is happening to me.
So, I fully believe that this character didn’t act on it. I think that if we acted on a lot of the things that we – there’s a lot of things we shouldn’t act on. Let’s just put it that way. (Laugh)
Tavis: Fair.
Shepherd: It’s better to keep it in the realm of fantasy.
Tavis: But does it make you that? That’s my question. Are you truly that thing if you never act on it?
Shepherd: Well…
Tavis: 'Cause now we’re back to your point about fantasy. It’s fantasy, but it doest make you that.
Shepherd: Well, I think that we can have times in our life where we become an experiment, and explore, and find ourselves in a very new way. Certainly with me, this is a big, in my life; it’s a big kind of change, a watershed change, as I get somewhat closer to 60. I've gotten to that point where I'm going yeah, as long as I was, like, this other age, closer to 50, somewhat closer to 60.
I've gotten to that point where I'm going yeah, as long as I was, like, this other age, closer to 50, (laugh) I didn’t think about the big six-oh. And a woman goes through the change. This big change. This big change. Some people call it "menopause," I like to call it just the big change.
Tavis: The big change, right. (Laugh)
Shepherd: The big change. And there’s this – I thought it was a myth for a long time, called menopausal bliss. Where suddenly, you're reenergized, and you’ve made it through, and you can imagine being so much more than you ever imagined.
Tavis: All right, well first of all, not that it matters, but for what it’s worth, you look marvelous. So, you should not be concerned about your looks approaching six-oh, so.
Shepherd: Well, thank you very much.
Tavis: And I'm sure every man watching feels the same way.
Shepherd: Well, thank you very much. I talked so long about how old I am that it’s too damn late to lie now.
Tavis: No. (Laugh)
Shepherd: But also I just wanted to talk about it, because for so many years, and even still now, women, particularly, are constrained by don't tell your real age, and oh my God, we’re getting older, and we’re supposed to look so more perfect than men. And so I like to talk about the things that are not considered speakable.
Tavis: Politically correct.
Shepherd: Well, I think there may be more politically correct than they are societally correct.
Tavis: To that point, then, what is your – since you went there, let me follow up on it. What is your state of mind as you approach that number, and still in this business? You're on here because we’re talking about your new role on “The L Word,” I’ll come back to that. I’ll circle back in just a second to the role, to the character specifically. But since you went there, what’s your state of mind about this business, as a woman who’s approaching that number?
Shepherd: Well, we’re basically invisible. I'm very fortunate that I got this part. Particularly as women reach a certain age, they're sensuality; their sexuality is not dealt with in television or movies. Or if there is one part, it goes to, like, there’s only, well, the thing I'm trying to say is that sensuality and sexuality of women in the media is not, we just don't see the stories about women as they age, and how we become and grow sensually.
Tavis: Yeah. Back to the character. Tell me about your character on “The L Word.”
Shepherd: I play Phyllis Kroll, and she is an executive vice chancellor of a major private university like USC. On the show, we call it California University. She’s had this amazing career, totally fulfilled as a heterosexual woman. Two grown children that are now away at college. A husband that has been wonderful. And I think that empty nest syndrome, when your children are away, there is an emptiness there.
And the scary thing, or also the great possibility or the great potential, certainly for a woman, is that that emptiness is something you can fill. You never replace your children, of course. But wow, I get to fill that space now. What is, who am I going to be? This has been a very important time for me, this last six months. I have learned to pump my own gas.
I've started going to the grocery store, I've started cooking. I've made some really dreadful recipes, but a wise friend said to me, “If it ain't good, just throw it out and start again.”
Tavis: Yeah. (Laugh)
Shepherd: And making my own appointments, and it’s been, well, that’s what happens when your assistant goes on vacation for three weeks.
Tavis: Yeah. (Laugh) I was laughing to myself, at least, when you talked about the character and having these kids go off to college.
Shepherd: Oh, and I went and shifted it to my own life, didn’t I?
Tavis: No, I cracked up, because…
Shepherd: Oh, that’s right, I didn’t even realize that.
Tavis: I wanted to come back to that, because for those of us who've been Cybill Shepherd fans for a long time, I told you when you walked out, I'm starting to feel old. I remember reading my “People” magazine when these twins, Cybill Shepherd has twins. You had these twins. These twins are in college now?
Shepherd: Yes they are; freshmen in college.
Tavis: Wow. (Laugh)
Shepherd: And one of my proudest moments was actually the “New York Post” cover which had at the top, “Bork Loses;” do you remember Judge Bork, who was defeated? Right?
Tavis: Right. Between the two of us, I was on the picket line. I helped make that happen.
Shepherd: Well, thank you. (Laugh)
Tavis: Yeah, yeah. (Laugh)
Shepherd: And then on the bottom was, Cybill has twins, and she’s fine. And it showed a picture of me pregnant with twins, and holding two People’s Choice awards, or something.
Tavis: Yeah.
Shepherd: That was a great moment for me.
Tavis: (Laugh) You are, again, those who are long time fans of yours know that you are a Memphis native. And I was just telling you before we started here that on my radio program this weekend, we’re airing a conversation with a demographer who I interviewed about the fact that Memphis is going to be the first metro area that is majority African American.
That’s gonna happen three, four years from now. But the majority, the first major metro area that will be majority African American. And you were raised in this town, and by all accounts, you really love your hometown of Memphis.
Shepherd: Yes, I was born and raised there. I grew up in the segregated south. I remember going to the Malco Theater downtown, and there was Colored only and White only. I remember the water fountains. I remember that when I went to the Shelby County, the county fair, mid-south state fair, that Blacks and Whites had a different day.
And also I remember that I did not have friends that were Black. My only experience with Black people was as domestic servants, and I almost hate to use that expression, because they were so, particularly one woman, Myrtle Gray Boone, was a very, very key factor, a great true life’s companion for me. An inspiration. Helped teach me how to mother my children.
And the great thing is that she had 13 of her own, and her whole life, she’d stayed home and never gone anywhere. When I said, “Will you go on the road with me, Myrtle?” And she said, “Oh, I can’t, I've gotta do this and that.” And she came back the next day, she said, “You know what? I stayed home my whole life, and it’s time for me to get a chance to travel.”
Tavis: The irony of that sharing on your part, the expression of what you remember growing up, the irony is not lost to me that here you now sit some years later on PBS, being interviewed by an African American male who you couldn’t even hang out with years ago. I would have been lynched for just that compliment I gave you earlier about how gorgeous you were? I would have gotten lynched for that, back in the day.
Shepherd: Emmett Till.
Tavis: Emmett, you remember this? Emmett Till.
Shepherd: Emmett Till.
Tavis: And then it occurs to me, speaking of irony, that it is your state of Tennessee where Harold Ford, Jr. came that close to being elected to the United States Senate here a few months ago.
Shepherd: He came so close that they say, “There really wasn’t a loser in that election.” Harold Ford, Jr.’s career is just beginning. I think that he did as well as he could have done. But there was an issue about his family, the Ford family, the dynasty, the problems that the Ford family have had, that it was very difficult for him to separate from.
And he said, “You just can’t choose family.” And he was referring to his brother Jake, who was defeated in the primary by Steve Cohen, who’s been just a state Senator in Tennessee for, say 20 years. And he’s a very close friend of mine. But Steve Cohen won, is now representative, the first White representative from the ninth district in Tennessee in what, 40 years?
The marvelous thing about Memphis is that when you go to Beale Street, it’s 50-50 Black and White. Another marvelous thing about Memphis is that when it became a racial issue about Steve Cohen, a White man, how dare a White man represent this Black district, historically Black district. And both mayors, Mayor Harrington and the county Mayor, they came out and supported Steve Cohen.
A lot of people said, “You cannot choose the right person for the job based on skin color. You have to choose a person who served your community.” And so it’s a kind of, like you're talking about Memphis, and the potential for Memphis. It is a fantastic example of a revival, not only with the African American majority, but a revival of the arts, and technology, and a booming downtown, and tolerance. It’s a very exciting place to be.
Tavis: You know what, if this acting thing doesn’t work out for you, (laugh) maybe you should consider running for mayor of Memphis one day. Or at least…
Shepherd: That’s hard job. (Laugh)
Tavis: Or at least be head of the convention and visitor’s bureau. That was a great promo. (Laugh) For the city of Memphis. I'm honored to meet you, glad to have you on the program.
Shepherd: Oh, I'm so happy to be here.
Tavis: Cybill Shepherd, now on “The L Word” on Showtime. Up next, filmmaker Guillermo del Toro on his latest movie, “Pan's Labyrinth.” Stay with us.
[Clip]
[Clip]
Tavis: I love that line. From the imagination of Guillermo del Toro. (Laugh) That guy’s got a great job, doesn’t he? That guy…
Guillermo del Toro: (unintelligible)
Tavis: He must make a ton of money. From the imagination of Guillermo del Toro.
del Toro: Can you imagine that guy in the drive through in a burger joint? I want four burgers, with fries.
Tavis: Yeah. (Laugh)
del Toro: Amazing.
Tavis: Nice to meet you.
del Toro: Same here.
Tavis: Glad to have you here. I go to that line in part because I'm curious as to what drives, what stirs up, what is this imagination of Guillermo del Toro, because this movie is quite imaginative.
del Toro: Yes. I believe it’s all sugar rush. (Laugh)
Tavis: Yeah. (Laugh)
del Toro: I think it’s all candy fed.
Tavis: A sugar rush. Yeah.
del Toro: No, I think it’s always been like that, since I was a very young kid, and its monsters (unintelligible), and I love them. In any way, shape, or form, I don't care if it’s Godzilla or a gremlin. Love them.
Tavis: But it’s one thing to love them. I don't wanna (unintelligible). It’s one thing to love them, but another thing to come up with these storylines. And people around the world are gonna be trying to figure this thing out. What did he mean by – they already are, of course. What does he mean by this, and what does this, what’s he saying here. Is there something deeper here, or is it just your imagination run amok?
del Toro: No, I think I tried to configure some of the movies like a parable. Like there was “Backbone,” “Cronos,” this one. I tried to create, like, a fable or a parable about something. “Cronos,” and this one, to an extent, is about a choice, disobedience, immortality. Our dealing with mortality, which is a much better subject.
And I try to layer them very carefully, very densely. And then if people watching them like a Saturday night movie, that’s fine by me. If they wanna study them a little more, I put things in there that they’ll find.
Tavis: Yeah. To your point now, are there messages here that you are trying to deliver? Because you could obviously do a film that is just entertaining, or to your point now about choices and about morals and about mortality versus immortality. You trying to send a message through “Pan's Labyrinth?” Messages?
del Toro: Well, I think that when I was a kid, I'm an ex-Catholic. And when I was a kid, I would go Sunday church, and I would be mostly interested in the parables of the bible. They really took me. And it’s not so much disclosing a parable as it is bringing it forth as a point of discussion. I don't have a point that I need to drive in, but I do show the different destinies of characters that are confronted with a choice in the movie. And those that choose to obey, and those that choose to disobey. And contrary to the classical fairytale, I'm in favor of disobedience.
Tavis: (Laugh) What I love – I'm glad to hear you say about, speak on parables. One of my favorite parts of the bible, as well. I love parables. I've got three or four that are personal favorites. But those four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I love those parables in there. I love these didactic narratives, to your point, in part because they don't beat you over the head, but again, it’s a didactic narrative here.
But when you put that forth, people can walk away with any number of different interpretations, and people will see different things. You're okay with that with your film, though.
del Toro: Oh, absolutely, because to me, that’s the essence of a fairytale. Fairytales were created not only to entertain, but they addressed spiritual subjects for me. Not to any canon or religion, just what it is to be human. They made manifest troubles that happen inside the soul of the human being. And one of the most beautiful books in the bible, for example, to me is a very mysterious book, which is the book of Job. It can be interpreted in so many ways to so many people that it becomes archetypical.
Tavis: Now, you said a moment ago, I thought I heard you say you were an ex-Catholic.
del Toro: I'm totally ex-Catholic.
Tavis: Is there a reason for that?
del Toro: Well, I'm all in favor of sloth, and I'm all in favor of gluttony. (Laugh)
Tavis: Yeah. (Laugh)
del Toro: And other sins. I actually started digging sins when I started growing – oh, no, no, that’s not it. In reality, (laugh) I don't believe that any form of organized religion or politic does not get corrupted, because it becomes a power structure. So, I believe in the principles, I love, it’s still internal part of my life. But I put my own riff to it. It’s different than when I was a kid.
Tavis: Let me do a parallel, offer a parallel, if I can, here. How do you, when you become the kind of star that you are now being given credit with other colleagues for ushering in an appreciation for Mexican artistry, or artistry coming out of that experience, how do you keep your artistry from being corrupted? You're right, organized religion gets corrupted. But once you get to Hollywood, and people start putting their hands on you and this creative imagination of yours, your artistry can get corrupted.
del Toro: Yeah, well, you do your best. I came here first in 1994, essentially to pay off my debt from “Cronos,” which left me broke for the first time. I've been broke three times.
Tavis: Yeah. (Laugh)
del Toro: And that’s one of the ways to keep from being corrupted. I go do something like “Devil’s Backbone,” and then I go do something like “Blade” or “Hellboy.” And then I make it a point, spiritually and personally, and it’s artistic survival to come and do “Pan's Labyrinth,” which, financially, for me, not for other people, but for me, it’s a catastrophe financially. (Laugh)
But it’s spiritually amazing to do. I need it as much as one would need to breathe. So, I recommend going for bankruptcy a couple of times. (Laugh) And it’ll keep your spirituality intact.
Tavis: I'm glad to hear you say that, because I hear the point you're making. But your artistry is that important to you, to make those kinds of choices. Even if you don't make money off of it, I'm doing this for Guillermo.
del Toro: It is. It sounds altruistic, but ultimately, it’s survival. Because there is a saying that Basque poet wrote in Spain that I love. He says, “There was a man that was so poor that all he could have is money.” And living in the environment I live in, I'm dealing with people I deal in, I see people that are incredibly rich, and they're having a beautiful meal, and they're not paying attention to the meal. They live in a huge house. I wouldn’t call it a beautiful house. But they're not enjoying their house. And so on and so forth. So I really, I was raised that way.
Tavis: You said that this movie, I read in one or two interviews where you’ve suggested that this is the most personal film you’ve ever made. And I kind of laughed when I read that. I was, like, this guy’s gonna be a – I'm waiting to meet this guy. He must be pretty strange. (Laugh) If this is the most personal film he’s ever made. What’d you mean by that?
del Toro: I meant everything you can imagine. (Laugh)
Tavis: (Laugh) I was afraid of that.
del Toro: Including strange facts, like for example when I was a kid, I was very given to lucid dreaming, which essentially meant that I would – I hope it was lucid dreaming – I would go to sleep and start dreaming I was in the exact bed I was in, in the exact room I was in, and things would come out in that room. Monsters. And in one of the dreams, at midnight I would hear the chimes of the church at midnight, and I was in that bed, in that room, and a faun like the one in the movie would come out from behind my grandmother’s armoire.
So that’s the start of how personal it is. And then I think the girl represents the essence of what I am. Like the essence of the artist that you carry when you're a kid. I'm not wearing garters or a dress underneath these clothes, (laugh) but that girl represents a lot of the essence of what I am.
Tavis: Yeah. This the same grandmother who had you exorcised not once, but twice?
del Toro: Yes, twice. (Laugh) And the first time she exorcised me, and the second time, I started laughing, 'cause I was old enough to find it ridiculous. And the more I laughed, the more my grandmother would throw holy water, 'cause why is he laughing at the holy water? And I was laughing at the holy water; I'm more laughing at you. (Laugh)
But it was impossible, my grandmother, whom I loved dearly, she died. And when she was dying, I took her my latest creations to look, and she was looking at my drawings and my sculptures and stuff like that, and she started crying. And she said, “You could never create anything beautiful.” (Laugh) And I said to her that these are beautiful to me.
Tavis: I was told you always carry a little brown book with you, and there it is.
del Toro: Yeah, this is it.
Tavis: So you're sketching all the time.
del Toro: Yeah, I wrote something about a few minutes ago that I cannot read on the air, but I’ll show it to you.
Tavis: Okay. But you're writing and drawing all the time.
del Toro: Yeah, what I do is I make notes all day long. I do drawings…
Tavis: Jonathan, can you see this? I just want you to see that. His handwriting is so…
del Toro: It’s, I've…
Tavis: Very small.
del Toro: Each project is sort of, each book is an artistic project for me. So what I do is I try to make it different. My writing changes on each of the notebooks. This sounds completely like the, this is my seven writing, (laugh) like the psychopath in seven, really tight and neat. Because I have a finite number of these books, and I said, “Well, I gotta start writing smaller (laugh) or I’ll lose it.”
Tavis: His name is Guillermo del Toro. His film, you already know about. “Pan's Labyrinth.” It’s winning everything, and I do mean everything. Go check it out, you will certainly be entertained. It’s a pleasure to meet you.
del Toro: Same here.
Tavis: Come back sometime.
del Toro: I will.
Tavis: I enjoyed talking to you.
del Toro: Yeah.
Tavis: That’s our show for tonight. Catch me on the weekends on PRI, Public Radio International. Our radio podcast now available at TavisTalks.com. Catch you back here next time on PBS. Until then, good night from L.A., thanks for watching, and as always, keep the faith.
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