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Tavis Smiley: Good evening. From Los Angeles, I'm Tavis Smiley. Tonight, a conversation with comedian and commentator Bill Maher. The former host of “Politically Incorrect” kicks off a new season of his HBO series “Real Time” this Friday night. Recently, “Real Time with Bill Maher” won the Producers Guild award for the best variety show on TV.
Tonight, his thoughts on the proposed troop surge in Iraq, the race for the White House, and the trial of former Cheney aide Scooter Libby. And you know Bill, just about anything else Bill wants to talk about.
We’re glad you’ve joined us. Bill Maher’s coming up right now.
Announcer: “Tavis Smiley” is made possible in part by Toyota, makers of the 2007 Toyota Avalon. Toyota. Now, that’s moving forward.
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Tavis: (Laugh) I'm always pleased to welcome Bill Maher to this program. On Friday night, his award-winning HBO show kicks off a new season, recently “Real Time with Bill Maher” picked up the Johnny Carson Producers Guild award for best variety series. I didn’t even know they had an award called the Johnny Carson…
Bill Maher: I must have been out of the country (laugh).
Tavis: I knew nothing about this. Brother can’t compete if he don't know nothing about the award.
Maher: Yeah.
Tavis: Being given.
Maher: Hey, I won something. Shush.
Tavis: (Laugh) Friday nights at 11:00 PM. Here’s some of what you missed so far, but check out this clip.
[Clip]
Tavis: So how can you have a clip reel that features Joe Biden, and not make the first question a Biden question?
Maher: And John Kerry.
Tavis: And John Kerry.
Maher: I get all the – and Howard Dean. I'm trying to think of everybody (laugh) who’s been disqualified on the democratic side. Maybe my show’s a curse.
Tavis: All right, so you an honorary brother.
Maher: Thank you.
Tavis: So, did you get the articulate thing? Were you upset about (laugh) Biden calling us articulate? Obama specifically.
Maher: Upset? No. I would have been upset if it came from somebody who I really thought was a racist. I was actually upset that more Democrats didn’t jump in to defend Joe Biden a little bit. Racism is terrible. It’s also not a good thing in this country that you can’t misspeak for one second without, you gotta go away. That’s the country we live in.
People are such babies that if their sensibilities are upset for one second – he made me uncomfortable for one second, you must disappear. That’s wrong. Look, Joe Biden is an old-school liberal. His mouth has not quite caught up with his heart. That’s just his problem. He didn’t mean to say anything bad. He said “clean,” he meant clean-cut or fresh, or something. Yeah, it was – it made me wince. It was a real wincer. But can we really afford to keep throwing people away like this just because they misspeak once?
Tavis: All right, so let me play devil’s advocate. Let’s just act like we’re on “Real Time” here. Can I be a guest (laugh) on your show right now? So, you say that to me, and I say to you “But we live in the most multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic America ever, and if you're gonna win, you’ve got to understand how to relate to, how to talk to African American people.”
Ross Perot didn’t mean anything negative when he went to the NAACP and kept saying “you people,” talking to Black people. I don't regard Ross Perot as a racist. But you can’t walk to a Black convention and say “you people, you people, you people, you people.” So, unwittingly, he might not have intended to offend…
Maher: To me, that was a little different. I don't know where – I don't think Ross Perot is an out-and-out racist, but he’s an old dude from Arkansas (laugh).
Tavis: Which means what (laugh)?
Maher: I don't know. I really don't. That was never – let me put it this way. It was never an issue that was at the top of his agenda, I didn’t feel. And when you say “you people,” yes, you are sort of indicating, I think, that yeah, these are people, but they're not my people, and they never will be my people. But sometimes people can be very effective.
This is government, after all. We should be concerned about what really gets done. Lyndon Johnson used to call his chauffeur boy. That wasn’t cool. But he did pass the most far-reaching Civil Rights legislation in the twentieth century.
Tavis: But you kicked George Bush – you did it last season, I'm sure you'll do it this season. You kick his behind more than anybody about language. And so I like Joe Biden as well, but it’s about language. You have Frank Luntz on your show all the time. He just wrote a book, “Words That Work: It’s Not What You Say, It’s What People Hear.” So how do you kick George Bush’s behind for his language problem, and you don't wanna do Biden the same way?
Maher: I kick his behind because he can’t speak English (laugh). Period.
Tavis: He’s not articulate.
Maher: (unintelligible) from people like Joe Scarborough asking, is he an idiot? First of all, when you’ve lost Scarborough Country, (laugh) then you’ve lost America. But is he an idiot? Yes, I think the science is in on that. (Laugh) That’s a more far-reaching question. This is something different. This bothers me, because I just keep seeing people being tossed aside, and we don't exactly have a plethora of leadership in this country.
Howard Dean couldn’t be president, as you recall, because he said “yeehaw.” (Laugh) He had to go. Al Gore sighed. Remember he sighed during the debate? Out. You sighed, Kerry botched a joke, out. Biden said “clean,” and he meant fresh, or whatever. Out. (Laugh) To me, that’s the bigger issue.
Tavis: Okay, so what do you make of this clean, fresh, articulate Negro named Barack Obama who was on “60 Minutes” a couple nights ago?
Maher: Last night.
Tavis: Yeah.
Maher: He was good. He’s always good. I think he’s an extremely bright guy, and I think the people who say, and I hear it a lot, (laugh) that he’s not Black enough, or they criticize him because somehow, he’s a Black man who’s acceptable to White people. Yeah, but he’s not trying to be that. That’s one reason why I think he’s got a good shot at it.
There are – I think it was our friend O.J. Simpson (laugh) who once talked about how, when I go to work, I have to talk White. And there is that in America, that Black people have to be bilingual sometimes. They really speak one way in the company of other Black folks, and then they speak differently with Whites. I don't think Barack Obama is doing that.
I don't think he’s putting on an act. I don't think he’s acting White. I don't think he’s acting Whiter than he is. I think that’s who he is. He’s a product of a mixed culture.
Tavis: Okay, so since you an expert on Negro affairs, then you explain to me how he trials Hillary two to one in Black America. I'm just curious as to your take on this.
Maher: I think that’s a sign of great progress, that Black people don't vote in lock-step. They don't just, “Oh, he looks like me, I push the button; like a cash register at a fast food restaurant.” They don't have, (laugh) the kids can’t read anymore who work there, so they just have pictures of the food. If somebody orders – I want a (laugh) double cheeseburger, and they find the picture of it.
I think that’s how some people think people vote in this country. Oh, I find the one who looks like me, and I push the button. Well, I'm glad we’re a little more sophisticated than that. But it’s also very early. I think Barack Obama is still becoming known to the American public. To his credit, he already has a lot of name recognition. Unfortunately, the names are Hussein and Osama (laugh).
Tavis: Yeah (laugh).
Maher: But it is recognition.
Tavis: How much fun do you expect that you will have this season – or do you think it’s much ado about nothing – that is to say, the race and gender question that Obama and Hillary bring to the table? You gonna play around with that a lot this season, or do you think that’s old at this point?
Maher: I don't think it’s old. How can it be old when we’ve never done either one of them in this country? It’s not gonna be old (laugh) until one of them gets elected. And that is still certainly an open issue.
Tavis: Possible?
Maher: Yes…
Tavis: This time around?
Maher: Yeah, look, I’ve always thought Hillary was a very hard sell to win the general election, but I see the poll numbers. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe she’s been around so long, and people have gotten to know her slowly, that they are more comfortable with her. I've always said I didn’t think she could win because I thought she would alienate both the left and the right, and she has already alienated, I think, a lot of people on the left, because she is a triangulator.
She’s always trying to tack to the center. She comes out against video games, or she came out against flag burning. Really (laugh). Hillary Clinton, the valedictorian of Wesley, the first woman in outer space, but she’s against flag burning? That kind of stuff really ticks off people like me, and anyone who thinks progressively, shall we say.
On the other hand, she’s always gonna be trying to go after that red state vote. And I just don't think she’ll ever get that vote. I think those people are just never gonna vote for Mrs. Oral Sex (laugh). I think they remember that, and that’s what matters to them. And they just see her as something that’s everything that’s wrong with America.
Which is ridiculous, because she’s actually a centrist, very sensible, very effective. She’s certainly not a captivating speaker, and I don't think she ever will be. And let’s not forget, as long as we’re talking about people who aren’t allowed to be president 'cause they said “yeehaw” or they sighed, or some other stupid reason, it’s also stupid that Bill Clinton can't be president.
We just accept the fact that it’s Hillary Clinton that we’re gonna vote for and not vote for. But let’s step back a second and remember, really, the Clinton we want is Bill Clinton. And that’s not a knock on her because she’s a woman.
Tavis: But Bill, it’s called two terms and you're out. He did that.
Maher: Which is wrong. I'm not saying that she’s not as good because she’s a woman. She’s not as good because she’s not Bill Clinton. Nobody’s as good, because nobody’s Bill Clinton. It’s ridiculous, that dumbass twenty-second amendment, or whatever amendment it is. He should be able to run for president. Arnold Schwarzenegger should be able to run for president.
Tavis: But Bill, you're all over the map now, because you're the first guy – I watch you every week. You're the first guy to talk about the fact that power corrupts. You talk about that all the time. These people get entrenched, they get this power, it corrupts. So now you're arguing that Clinton ought to be the eternal president?
Maher: Well, if people want him to run, if people want to elect him, if he’s the best man for the job, we’re only shooting ourself in the foot by disqualifying people for president.
Tavis: But when Clinton or anybody else gets in, and that power, that aphrodisiac gets to them and they grab more of it and more of it and more, then you kick them in the behind for being…
Maher: That gets to them on the first day. I don't see how being there for eight years or 12 years would make any bit of difference. That was a revenge amendment against FDR to begin with. Look, a tribe has a council, and it tries to choose its greatest warriors to lead them into battle. This tribe seems to disqualify our greatest warriors. That, to me, not an effective way of running a government.
Tavis: What made Clinton for you so effective, for lack of a better word?
Maher: Well, he was a very bright man, there’s that. He read (laugh). I'm kind of nostalgic for that.
Tavis: (Laugh) A president who reads, imagine that, yeah.
Maher: Does anyone doubt that if he had been president during Katrina, for example, that he would have been all over it? That he would have been down there? He would have probably not slept for a week. That’s who he was. He was a detail guy. He’s known as Mr. Horny, (laugh) but truly, what he is is a wonk. A real wonk. He and his wife really care about government.
There are people who believe in government. That’s a fundamental difference from the Republicans, who constantly say government is the problem. Government can't do things effectively. No, not the way you do it, it can't do things effectively. But when Bill Clinton was president, FEMA was an effective organization.
Because these people actually believe in civics. They believe that there’s a way to do things. This crowd in Washington believes you should outsource everything to the private sector. This magical private sector, which winds up being both corrupt and ineffective. So, what I liked about Bill Clinton, he wasn’t an ideologue. He was, he and his wife both, they're administrators. They really believe in doing the job, getting the job done. Getting answers to problems people have.
Tavis: All right, so I know this is a crazy assumption, but just play with me here. Assuming that you found somebody on the right that you liked who you could support, who do you like most on that side of the aisle at this point?
Maher: I have no problem with somebody – when you say on the right, I could (unintelligible)…
Tavis: McCain, Giuliani…
Maher: I don't know about on the right, but a Republican I could certainly support. I like McCain. I did support him for a while in 2000.
Tavis: He’s twisting like a pretzel these days, though.
Maher: Yeah. But now he just reminds me of, like, somebody you went out with a long time ago, and you say “What did I ever see in that person (laugh)? What was that all about? Was I just blinded? Was it the sex? What?” Yeah, so no, he’s lost me. And he’s done some good things. And look, I have a real thing about people who’ve served militarily in this country.
I just think, all things being equal, if you put that kind of sacrifice in for the country, you should get the nomination, period (laugh). Because we don't know how it’s gonna come out anyway. They all lie when they run. We don't know what they're really gonna do when – we don't know what they're really gonna be about. George Bush ran on no nation building, and he winds up doing nothing but building nations.
So, I've always had a soft spot for veterans, but that only goes so far. McCain has really turned around on the straight talk express. That is not the straight talk express anymore. That is the let me rephrase express.
Tavis: (Laugh) What do you make of the fact, since you mentioned service in time of war, that every year since you’ve been hosting “Real Time” on HBO Iraq is at the center of the political debate?
Maher: You're right.
Tavis: Here you are now starting season five, and you can’t get away from it.
Maher: You're right. We started, yeah, we started just with the war. We went on in February of 2003.
Tavis: This is season five, though. Here you are (unintelligible).
Maher: Isn't that ridiculous? It is ridiculous, and it’s not good for talk shows, because everything has been said. Actually, it was a lot more fun to talk about it in 2003, when most of the country was against us. I like it better (laugh)…
Tavis: (Laugh) When everybody’s against you.
Maher: Yeah, when I have a whole big majority to try to turn around and come over to my side. Now, everybody’s on this side. The only person who I can’t turn around is George Bush.
Tavis: Cheney’s still pretty close.
Maher: Cheney, yes, but just those diehards who are in the bunker, moving the thing on the map with the shuffleboard cue (laugh). The troops, the surge. Yeah, that’s gonna help. It’s an amazing degree of arrogance that this man, who has so little understanding of that region of the world, to this day, thinks that he can ignore the Iraq Study Group, he can ignore the will of the American people, he can ignore the will of the Iraqi people.
He can ignore his own party. And so many voices in his own party. Because he knows. He knows better than anybody else. Yeah, that is truly a faith-based initiative, (laugh) that surge.
Tavis: Let me ask you, the Iraq issue is one issue that we’ve established you're still talking about five years later, and people now agree with you on that question, where they didn’t five seasons ago. On the environment question, which you're very, very passionate about, is it your sense that we’re starting to move in the Bill Maher direction (laugh) on the environment, given Al Gore’s success on the movie “Inconvenient Truth,” and the whole debate about global warming? Are we moving in the right direction?
Maher: I don't know. First of all, it’s not the Bill Maher (laugh)…
Tavis: I say that, you’ve been out there on this issue for years.
Maher: Yeah. I'm hardly the leader, and I'm hardly the best one. Ed Begley was driving a (laugh), something that, and I used to get him. I said, “Ed was supposed to be on our show today, but it was cloudy.”
Tavis: Yeah (laugh).
Maher: Like a solar-powered, literally. He had, like, a solar-paneled car in 1990 (laugh). So, there are people who are really walking the walk on this one. But I don't know, it depends on what you would ask people to sacrifice. If you polled a thousand people and said, “We could make, we could reduce global warming by 50 percent tomorrow if we stopped using the remote on your television,” how many people you think would give up their remote?
Tavis: Good question (laugh).
Maher: How many people would actually go back to getting up to that box, (laugh) and turning the channel? I think people would just go, “Yeah, I thought I was an environmentalist, but boy, you kind of put me to the test. You're right, dude. Give me the remote.”
Tavis: I'm just glad you posed that as a statement and not as a question to me.
Maher: Right?
Tavis: I might be in trouble on that. So here’s what I – I've said this to you before. I really hate when I turn on TV Friday nights, and you're not in your season.
Maher: Thank you.
Tavis: Because there are certain things I just want to hear your take on. So, can I throw a few things at you?
Maher: Yeah, please.
Tavis: I've been wanting to know what does Bill Maher think about this.
Maher: Okay (laugh).
Tavis: I looked for you and I wanted to hear your commentary so badly about the astronaut lady (laugh).
Maher: Oh, the diaper lady?
Tavis: Yeah (laugh). I wanted to hear your take on it.
Maher: Well, I've never, (laugh) I've never worn a diaper on a long trip, but I have peed in a bottle. So I don't feel like (laugh) I can cast stones, exactly, on this issue. I have done that. Right in a bottle. Because sometimes, you do wanna get where you're going, (laugh) and you don't wanna stop. An empty bottle, which I was not planning to reuse.
It sounded gross at first, and then I did a little more research about it. That was a NASA-issued diaper. That wasn’t, like, something you could buy at Kmart. That wasn’t Depends, which I think is disgusting. That’s what they wear when they go up in the rocket ship. And apparently, there’s some chemical that dries it, so it’s cool (laugh). I wouldn’t say it’s something I would recommend to war around during the day just because you're lazy.
But in bed at night (laugh)? I don't think there’s – who wants to get up in the middle of the night? You're probably getting to that age where you're trying to, your sleep is interrupted. And it would be – I think this product could start to really sell. The way – remember when O.J. Did his slow-speed Bronco? The Bronco was almost gonna be discontinued, and then it took off. Everyone wanted a Bronco. Well, I think in a similar way, I think people are gonna want these diapers.
Tavis: All right. Thank you, Bill Maher. I knew there’d be something insightful there that would come from you. So…
Maher: But astronauts have changed (laugh). I can't see Gus Grissom…
Tavis: Or John Glenn, yeah.
Maher: …putting on a diaper (laugh) and getting into a big pissing match with Alan Shepard because they both wanted to do John Glenn. I just can't see that. Those are the old school astronauts, (laugh) Tavis.
Tavis: All right, so I wanted to hear what your take was on that. And speaking of sad stories, a sad story here, but I was dying to hear your take on the whole Anna Nicole Smith thing. I still don't know what that thing, what that was, or is.
Maher: Yeah, I guess, I don't know, I haven’t heard the latest. It’s hard to find coverage (laugh). Yeah, that’s what I thought mostly, which is something I think every time there’s a tabloid story, is I just get incensed and so angry at news channels, because they are so not news channels anymore. It was bad enough when MTV stopped showing videos.
It was like hey, you're called Music Television, but there's no music on your television? Okay, but that was just music. But news. News channels don't really show news. I turn on news channels, and I can't find someone telling me news. I can find stories about Anna Nicole Smith. Or I can find some nonsense about this is what people out there think.
I don't care what people out there think. I want the news, dude. But her? Okay, you wanna, I don't know. I never met her. She seemed like a sad person. Always very sad person. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to speak ill of the death, but not a very bright person. Didn’t seem like a great mother. She lost her kid. That’s usually not an indication that you're being a great parent, when your kid turns up dead, too.
And when you're 39 and they find you dead, well, it’s usually drugs. It’s pretty hard to be dead at 39 unless you're doing some pretty heavy drugs. And those, of course, are prescription drugs. So if you wanna find an issue in this, that, to me, would be the issue. Prescription drugs are the real killer in this country. When you hear a lobby called Partnership for a Drug-Free America, just remember they do not want a drug-free America.
They want an America free of the drugs that are their competition (laugh). Marijuana. Okay? Which never killed anybody. So I guess the lesson is kids, stick with the marijuana (laugh).
Tavis: So (laugh) in 45 seconds, are you excited about season five here, sir?
Maher: (Laugh) I can say that in three seconds. Yes, I am (laugh). Now what am I gonna do with the other 32 seconds?
Tavis: Well, the other 32 seconds, we’ll just talk about the fact that the show’s premiering Friday night on HBO.
Maher: Oh, good, a plug.
Tavis: And you know your guest star this Friday?
Maher: I do. Now can I remember? I know John Edwards is in the satellite.
Tavis: John Edwards, okay.
Maher: I know, (laugh) I don't know.
Tavis: That’s good, though.
Maher: It was a great panel. Oh, Chuck Schumer is on the panel. Senator Chuck Schumer. Carla Fiorini (unintelligible), right.
Tavis: Yes, (unintelligible). Formerly of HP, yeah.
Maher: And anybody?
Tavis: Anybody?
Female One: (unintelligible) Steele.
Maher: Michael Steele.
Tavis: Michael Steele.
Maher: Lieutenant Governor Michael Steele.
Tavis: There you go.
Maher: Who’s (laugh) probably…
Tavis: Put a little color in there.
Maher: Yeah, that’s right. So we got a southerner, a woman, and a very clean Black man.
Tavis: (Laugh) Bill Maher, I love you. Good to see you, man.
Maher: Thank you, Tavis, always a pleasure.
Tavis: Bill’s back. And thank God for some insight and levity (laugh) at the same time. That’s our show for tonight. Catch me weekends on PRI, Public Radio International. Our radio podcast available at TavisTalks.com. See you back here next time on PBS. Until then, (laugh) good night from L.A., thanks for watching, and keep the faith.
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