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• About The War Against Hope
• Chartwell Education Group
• Dr. Paige's bio

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Tavis: Rod Paige, of course, served as secretary of education from 2001 to 2005. Following stints as the superintendent of the Houston public school system and dean of the College of Education at Texas Southern University, he is now the cofounder and chair of the Chartwell Education Group, a consulting firm dealing with education issue.

His new book is called "The War Against Hope: How Teachers' Unions Hurt Children, Hinder Teachers, and Endanger Public Education." Mr. Secretary, you a bold man. I'm glad to have you on the program.

Rod Paige: (Laughs.) Well, thank you for inviting me.

Tavis: When the secretary walked on the stage, I reached up to him and kind of -- (unintelligible) kind of patted him down like this to make sure he (laughter) had his bulletproof vest on. 'Cause you going after the teachers' union with a book like this, this is not gonna be cute. Let me just start by taking the book by its subtitle, which really does make the case that you argue in the book. "The War Against Hope." Let me start with that title. Do you really believe that teachers' union represent a war against the hopes of our children?

Paige: Well, I think that the teachers' unions have become the primary barrier to school improvement, and I think primarily because of neglect of the public. So I'm not so sure whether that’s an indictment against the teachers' union or the public's inattention.

Tavis: Give me the story of how you see teachers' unions hurting children.

Paige: Well, they tie them to a system that's not serving them well, prevents them from having change, prevents them from having more great teachers than the amount that they need. Also makes the system work poorly, and also gives teachers a bad reputation.

Tavis: When you said ties them to a system that hurts children, what system do you speak of, and in which ways…

Paige: The public education system that we have now was started in the first couple decades of the century. And it's essentially the same system now. Everything else in the world has gone on and changed and moved forward; this system has remained primarily the same. And one of the greatest barriers for innovation and creativity is the aggressive teachers' union.

Tavis: Let me challenge you respectfully on this -- and I'm not arguing that this is a panacea or this is a perfect example. What I am suggesting, though, is that one could argue that our Constitution hasn’t changed a whole lot over the course of this country, and you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. So when you argue that the public school system is essentially the same now as it was back in the day, so is the country. But I don't see you writing a book saying, "Let's throw the country out."

Paige: Well, actually, our Constitution almost ignored public education, because it didn’t even mention it. And so therefore it left it up to the states 'cause of the Tenth Amendment, and that means that each state has its own system of public education. So it was embedded in the legislatures of each of the individual states.

Tavis: Okay, and some would argue that that, in fact, is the problem -- that there are 50 states doing this 50 different ways.

Paige: I've argued that point, too. And a matter of fact, I've written several op-ed pieces about that.

Tavis: Since you say it's been this way for so long and it hasn’t changed, what about it from the very beginning most fundamentally bothers you that needs to be changed?

Paige: It was billed after the factory system, and it operates almost like a factory system. It is a monopoly, and we all know that monopolies don't work. There are several elements that I could use as an example. For example, in this system, we pay great performers the same as we pay average performers, even the same as we pay poor performers. We know that's not the way to make things work well.

Tavis: How do teachers' unions hinder teachers?

Paige: Teachers' unions discourage creative and maverick teachers from going the extra mile by limiting them to the amount of effort that's usually embedded in the union contract. For example, I think in the New York schools the teachers' union's contract required something like three and a half or three and three-quarters hours of work, or something like that. So these contracts put in work rules that discourage maverick teachers from going forward and going the extra mile.

Tavis: How do teachers' unions endanger public education?

Paige: Well, the system of public education is not going to continue unless it improves. And so I think that the unions are actually marching to their own death march, because what they're doing is they're killing the system. And that's why you see now a cry for vouchers, charter schools, cyber schools, home-schooling is the fastest-growing delivery system now.

Parents are not going to put up with it. People are going to go where they need to go in order to get their children a good education.

Tavis: Marian Wright Edelman, who unfortunately you did not get a chance to just see now, but Marian Wright Edelman was just on this program. As you know, the founder of the Children's Defense Fund.

Paige: One of my heroes.

Tavis: One of your heroes. I'm glad you said that, because she's not very fond of the Bush administration, when you were there.

Paige: Well, that's her right.

Tavis: But let me finish this, though. One of your heroes, but she's not a follower of the Bush administration when you were there, principally because you all lifted that No Child Left Behind. That's been the motto of the Children's Defense Fund since its inception, and you all lifted their motto, and she didn’t take kindly to that, number one.

But secondly, she just said to me -- and I'm paraphrasing -- she also does not take kindly to the fact that if you're gonna lift the motto, at least it ought to be attached to a program that benefits children. And the numbers aren't altogether pretty with regard to No Child Left Behind as we sit here talking right now.

Paige: I think a careful examination will show that the No Child Left Behind Act has really changed the culture in education. And what it's done primarily is cause people to pay more attention now to students that they have not in the past paid attention to. In fact, now, minority children primarily are growing faster than they’ve ever grown because they’ve had to be measured now, as required by law, and you have to pay attention to them. So, I think a careful examination of that will show that the No Child Left Behind Act is the best thing that's happened to us since 1965.

Tavis: Tell me what your sense is, then, of what we do about teachers' unions -- and I hope it's not -- it's your conversation, not mine, but I don't know that you're about to argue with me that we ought to just do away with teachers' unions.

Paige: Absolutely I'm not, because as sad as it is to admit, we need teachers' unions. Because teachers need protection from administrative abuse, and in some cases, administrative abuse exists. What I'm arguing against is over-unionization of our schools. I'm arguing against union rules that have our schools in a death grip. That should be loosened. And what are we going to do about it? I think we'll pay better attention to it, I'd like to see more visibility there.

Tavis: Tell me more specifically about what ought to be done. Give me more specifics about what you think the answer -- again, the title and the subtitle lays out what the accusations are, what the charges are. What's the solution as you see it?

Paige: Well, I think I'd render two quick solutions. One is every state should have a careful examination of their conflict of interest law, and to make sure that when we have union people sitting on both sides of the negotiation table that that's clear. The second thing is the negotiating contract should be out in the open. More than just a school board, other people should see it. The public should see it. There should be visibility in this process.

Tavis: If we go back to the notion that you and I both agree on that you’ve argued before that part of the problem is that there are 50 states that do this 50 different ways, what's that gotta do with teachers' unions? They didn’t set that system up.

Paige: No, they did not. In fact, they treat teachers' unions differently in the 50 different states, as well. I'm not sure that those two problems connect each other carefully. They are two different problems, but they are both problems, in my estimation.

Tavis: Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. -- I've discussed this with him any number of times -- has introduced legislation and tried to get some traction behind it in the House -- it hasn’t happened as yet -- suggesting that we need a Constitutional amendment. Now, the guy used to work for Mr. Bush.

Paige: Yeah, I've heard him say that.

Tavis: Mr. Bush wanted to amend the Constitution where gay marriage is concerned, but if you (unintelligible) the Constitution, Jesse Jackson, Jr., the congressman, has argued that we ought to amend it where education is concerned. And I think -- well, he makes the argument, at least, that most Americans don't realize that our Constitution, while giving us the right to life and liberty and pursuit of happiness and the right to free speech and to carry a weapon and all that other stuff does not guarantee every child in America access to an equal, high-quality education.

So I ask you this: if we had a constitutional amendment that guaranteed every child in America access to an equal, high-quality education -- it doesn't prejudge outcomes, but at least every child in America, no matter where he or she lives in those 50 states, starts at the same place with the same resources, it's constitutionally guaranteed access to an equal, high-quality education, how would that change this problem? Wouldn't that fix all this stuff?

Paige: No, I'm not sure that it would fix it, but I think that I have to agree that I, too, would like to see every child be guaranteed equal access to education. I think education is a civil right, just like the right to a fair trial. Just like the right to assemble. Education is a right, and I think every child should have that right. And I would agree to the outcome. I'm not sure that that's the solution to it or not.

Tavis: Okay, just play with me here for a second. If in fact we agree that it has to be a right that every child in this country has, forget Jesse Jackson, Jr.'s idea. How else do we get to that place? If you can answer that, it seems to me that you got the problem --

Paige: Well, I don't know, but I know in many state constitutions that that exists. States guarantee or assure that each child should have -- in some cases they say adequate, some cases they use other words, but they say the same thing. But the fact that it's in the Constitution does not make it a reality.

Tavis: Tell me that you believe that in your lifetime -- for that matter, I'm just a few years younger than you -- my lifetime, those of our great-grandkids, that we're going to see this issue addressed efficiently and effectively. This is one of the biggest -- every president that runs wants to be the education president. George Bush wasn’t the first one to say that. That wasn’t creative. Every president says that.

Paige: Absolutely.

Tavis: This is such a massive problem. How do you realistically get your arms around it?

Paige: Well, it is a massive problem, and the first thing we ought to do is our leadership needs to adopt it as a massive problem. When I look at the way that problems are laid out now, I hear a lot of lip service about it but I don't see any action to match it. I don't see the master plan, any thinking about it. When you examine the agenda from different conferences and meetings that are supposed to deal with the problems that affect us, you don't see education as standing out.

You don't see the achievement gap, which I think is the greatest problem that we face as a community. I think it is the most powerful issue that retards our progress.

Tavis: I'm out of time. Didn’t scratch the surface on this text. It is controversial, to be sure. A lot of people will be talking about it in the coming days. It's the new book by the former secretary of education, Rod Paige. "The War Against Hope: How Teachers' Unions Hurt Children, Hinder Teachers, and Endanger Public Education." Check it out, read it for yourself. Mr. Secretary, nice to have you on the program.

Paige: Thank you for having me.

Tavis: Good to see you.

Paige: Thank you, good to see you.

Tavis: That's our show for tonight. Catch me weekends on PRI, Public Radio International. Access our podcast through our website at PBS.org. See you back here next time on PBS. Until then, good night from L.A., thanks for watching, and as always, keep the faith.