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Is environmentalism a white, liberal movement?
 

Full Interview (24:13)
 

Tavis: I'm pleased to welcome Senator John Kerry back to this program, along with his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry. He is, of course, an influential Senator from Massachusetts former Democratic presidential nominee who sits on the very powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee. She, of course, a committed philanthropist and environmentalist who serves as chairman of the Heinz endowments.

The two have teamed up on a new book highlighting a new generation of environmental leaders. The book is called "This Moment on Earth: Today's New Environmentalist, and Their Vision for the Future." Senator Kerry, always an honor to have you on the program, sir.

Sen. John Kerry: Great to be back, thank you. We're delighted to be here.

Tavis: Teresa Heinz Kerry, nice to have you here as well.

Teresa Heinz Kerry: Thank you very much.

Tavis: Let me start, as you might suspect, with a couple political questions of the day. Hard to have the two of you here.

Kerry: Sure.

Tavis: Imagine that, not asking one political question of John Kerry right about now.

Kerry: We're ready, we're ready.

Tavis: Is it just me, or are you, like, the most vindicated man in America right now?

Kerry: Well, that's up for other people to decide, not me. I think it's just inappropriate for me to be running around talking vindication. But I am concerned about getting the policy right in Iraq, and this administration is still on the wrong track. And I'm deeply concerned - as you know, Teresa and I - about the lack of adequate response on a host of domestic issues, environment and healthcare, education, and others. We're going backwards, my friend.

Tavis: Let me - maybe you don't wanna talk about it, but I'm gonna talk about it anyway, 'cause I just found this fascinating. So I wake up - maybe Teresa will talk to me about this, if you don't wanna talk about it. So I wake up Sunday morning a couple days ago, pick up the "The New York Times." Front page, a story about Matt Dowd - we all know Matthew Dowd - the first person who is a real insider in the Bush administration who's broken ranks now with the Bush administration, coming out and saying that John Kerry was right.

In fact, he revealed to "The New York Times" on Sunday that he'd written an op-ed piece they'd never published, but had written an op-ed piece called just that, "Kerry Was Right," arguing that John Kerry was correct in calling last year for withdrawal from Iraq. So he won't talk about it, but how's it make you feel that people are finally coming around to saying that your husband was right a few years ago?

Heinz Kerry: You know, timing is always important in everything, and it seems that a significant body of leadership, whether media leadership or Washington leadership, whatever, wasn't there, wasn't ready for it. John knows this kind of issue very well, over a long period of time. And anyone would believe and should know that as we saw in Kosovo, as we saw with the Dayton Peace Accords, etcetera, that to build a consistent and sustainable process, you have to engage early, and it's a political one here in this case, not a military one.

And that should not be viewed as being unpatriotic or weak, or just one of those democratic, small D, weaknesses that we're not strong on security. That has nothing to do with it.

Tavis: So what do we do, Senator, to get out of this mess that we're in? Is it possible to get out at this point?

Kerry: Well, we have to. We have to get out, but we have to get out in a sensible way. We have to get out, I believe, in a way that honors the sacrifice of the soldiers who put themselves on the line. I think we have to get out in a way that meets our and the region's legitimate national security interests. Now, how do you do that?

You can't do that just running around with guns, knocking on doors, going through Baghdad. You have to do that by engaging the region. That means Iran, Syria, the entire region, in defining those interests and in finding the common ground and the way in which you're going to address them. When Ronald Reagan was president, even as he called the Soviet Union the evil empire, he knew he had to sit down with Gorbachev and negotiate, and they got somewhere.

Richard Nixon saw serious threat and confrontation with China, but even as he saw that, he sent Henry Kissinger to China to open the door to negotiations and discussion. Negotiating does not mean you capitulate. Negotiating and discussion does not mean you give up your principles. It means you look for the ways in which you serve the interests of your country, and that has not been done here.

Tavis: As you well know, starting with that axis of evil comment, this administration won't talk to Iran, doesn't wanna talk to Syria. Nancy Pelosi, Democratic Speaker, in Syria as we speak, over the last couple of days, at least, and caught hell for just going to Syria for sending the wrong message - a dual message, says the Bush White House. So how do you get from here to there, to your point, if you don't even want to talk?

Kerry: Well, Tavis, if the administration had credibility, then they'd have some leverage and they'd be able to say to the Congress we're on the right track, and we'd probably agree. And we'd join together. But we're a separate branch of government. This administration has trouble sometimes with our own Constitution. Witness the Patriot Act and the attorney general and eavesdropping and Guantanamo and other issues.

And the problem now is that the administration has lost all credibility in the region. I was in Syria several months ago. I met with President Assad for two hours or more. I believe I heard from him a number of different opportunities for us to be able to pursue possibilities of joint interest. Particularly, President Assad does not want a fractured, destroyed Iraq. He doesn't want a chaotic Iraq.

He has a predominantly Sunni nation, and it would be very damaging to him to have a long-term confrontation there. Similarly, Iran does not want a completely fractured Iraq. Yes, they're willing to create mischief now, and yes, they have agents in Iraq, and yes, they're challenging us, but that's because they know they can do this and bog us down and tie us down, and it makes other things more complicated.

If we were to set a date for the withdrawal from Iraq, for the redeployment from Iraq, leaving open the possibility of having troops deployed in a way that meets our long-term interests in the region, working with the other countries - Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, other countries - I guarantee you we could come up for a security arrangement that meets the needs of the region, diffuses the tensions, and begins to put the Middle East peace process back on the front burner, where it belongs.

Tavis: One other question about that, and two other quick political questions - I wanna get to the book here in the balance of the time that we have. To your point though, now, a guy you've served long with in the Senate on the other side of the aisle, of course, John McCain has made some news of late, not the least of which is 'cause he ain't raised no money that people thought he was gonna raise.

We'll come back to that in a second. But there are people who think, in fact - well, let me just stay there now. There's some folk, in fact, who think that his money woes have something to do with his position in Iraq. He's obviously very different; diametrically opposed from where you are on this Iraq question. There's a story that broke over the last couple days, though, about what happened in the last presidential election.

Whether or not you reached out to McCain to talk to him about being a running mate, possibly, across the aisle, or whether McCain's people reached out to you. What can you tell me about who did what and when they did it?

Kerry: I think all the - who did what is sort of a - it's not a great use of time, Tavis, to be honest with you. I think a more important question is John McCain's position on Iraq. I believe it is fundamentally flawed. It is the same position that Bush has, which is to increase the numbers of troops, which is to create more of a magnet for luring Al Qaeda and other jihadists to that center of conflict, and to attract terrorists to the cause.

Our own CIA has briefed us. Our intelligence briefings, our own intelligence agency is saying the policy in Iraq today is creating more terrorists. It has emboldened Hamas. It has emboldened Hizbullah. It has strengthened Iran and the region. It has created a fractured Iraq. You don't have to be smart to determine this ain't working.

And there's a point, when you're digging a hole, you stop digging the hole. It seems to me what is absent here, and what has been absent - and for three and a half years, I've been calling for this. I gave speeches in the presidential race in '04 in which I talked about the need for real diplomacy. We've had no real diplomacy. I know the difference.

And leaders in the countries in the region know the difference. And most recently when I was there, I know they feel there's been the absence of this kind of summoning of the parties to the table to resolve the real differences. And I think that absent that, it's going to be very difficult for the United States to have its interests met and to get out of there in a clean way.

But we could get out of there in a way that honors our troops, meets our national interests, sets the Iraqis up more independently, and meets the security needs of the region.

Tavis: I thought the Kerry-McCain question was an interesting and a good question, even though you didn't wanna deal with it.

Kerry: Well, I'm not dissing the question.

Tavis: Here's why, though. I said that only because - it's not to go back and rehash who did what when, I was being somewhat tongue in cheek about that. It's fascinating to me, Senator, respectfully, because it raises a question as to whether or not you think, in the world we live today, in the America we live today, an idea novel in that way could work.

Could it get off the ground? There are a lot of folk who think that you guys in D.C. have it all wrong; that what's lacking is bipartisanship. I ain't telling you nothing you don't know already.

Kerry: Well, let me say this about bipartisanship. I said publicly, and I think it's a well-known fact that Senator McCain and I had a conversation. That is a well-known fact. Senator McCain did not indicate a willingness to seriously entertain the idea of switching parties, be different or something, and so we never got that far. But the point I would make is that we need bipartisanship, and had I been elected president, I was determined to have at least four members of the Republican Party as members of my Cabinet.

Because I thought the country needed to see that we could work together, talk together, and really put the interests of everybody on the table. Didn't mean we're always gonna agree, but we gotta - people are tired of watching it, I'll tell you. That's part of what this book is about. It's a reflection of what the grassroots are doing, because Washington isn't doing it.

And here in California, Governor Schwarzenegger's taking the lead, along with legislators, to provide leadership on the environment. It's setting the example to other states in the country; Massachusetts has done some things. But the federal government's gotta step in here and recognize that we're gonna need China and India and other countries all to come to the table. For six and a half years, this administration has done nothing to advance one of the most serious challenges to all of us, and it's disgraceful.

Tavis: Ms. Kerry, to your mind, what makes - to the text now - what makes this new generation of environmentalists and their vision for the future different from the conversation heretofore?

Heinz Kerry: It's individual and it's practical. Not based on theories, based on, in some cases, self-preservation. Preservation of interests, of land, of their own businesses. In others, ostensible from perspective on health. In the case of Majora Carter, as an environmental justice issue in the Bronx. What she did is astounding.

Kerry: I'm sorry to interrupt you - this is a young woman whose dream was to get out of the Bronx. Young African American woman, went to Wesleyan College. Very, very smart, bright, capable lady.

Heinz Kerry: Very smart.

Kerry: Came back to study at NYU, had to live with her parents again 'cause she couldn't afford it otherwise. Discovered her own purpose in the Bronx when she got back there when she saw Hunt's Point and the waste transfer center that they were about to put in there. Another waste transfer center in the Bronx, and the air quality bad, and the community people didn't believe it.

She transformed it. She individually went out and fought back, organized people. She won a MacArthur Genius Award. A brilliant young woman. These are the stories of folks like that. Grassroots self-initiated.

Tavis: And that's a good example, Majora Carter, to the point you were making a moment ago, Ms. Kerry. There are a lot of people, though - Majora Carter notwithstanding - who see - and I've had these discussions a thousand times - who see this movement as a White liberal-led movement. Never mind the fact that we all live on the same planet.

What do we do about that perception? I wanted to ask you that, because one of the reasons why I wanted you to win four years ago - I admit that after the fact now, I can say that on TV - 'cause I wanted to have a first lady who was from Africa. (Laughter) Ms. Kerry's from Mozambique.

Heinz Kerry: Born and raised.

Tavis: Born and raised in Mozambique, so I was just excited about having a first lady from Africa. But anyway, that said, what about this -

Kerry: I hope that wasn't the only reason. (Laughter)

Tavis: (Laughs) All right, I'm digging a hole, and I know how to come up out of a hole.

Kerry: It's a darn good reason, but anyway.

Tavis: Yeah, I'll take your advice: come up out of the hole that I'm digging for myself. Anyway, what do you make of the fact that this movement for so many people is a White liberal movement?

Heinz Kerry: Well, inasmuch as environmentalism, as it's called, was very much associated with the sciences covered by EPA, Environmental Protection Agency, and therefore not ethereal, but in a sense almost too well-educated, elitist, etcetera, or the tree huggers and the people who chose owls versus jobs - that's how it was positioned.

Image-wise, there was some truth to that. But what both time, science, and disease, as well as the global climate change problem have shown us is that whereas in the past the issue of environmental justice was one that a lot of us were very concerned with for the people that have mostly been impacted by things we know, like positioning - African Americans living, 70 percent within 30 miles...

Kerry: Two-thirds of African Americans live within 30 miles of a coal-fired plant or a toxic site.

Heinz Kerry: Right, things like that. Today, I go beyond that a little, and even though that's a case still, all our children are under an environmental injustice umbrella because they're all born with bad air and the prospects for their future, if we carry on, is very dismal. And so I do a lot of work, and have on environmental causes of disease and cancer, women, children, etcetera, and the accumulation of studies that we now have, both epidemiological, primary, leads us to have to look at this as really not just a quality of life, but a survival.

And our children should not - and the parents of children with leukemia should not be told that yes, well, we are getting more rates of leukemia now, but we are even getting better rates of treatment and survival. It's not good enough.

Tavis: I wanna ask your husband a policy question in a second. Let me stay with you for just a second, though, because I wanna go back to - or at least stay in Mozambique. And I've been trying to think, for the last 30 seconds while you were talking, I'm blanking on the sister's name who won the Nobel Prize.

Heinz Kerry: Wangari Maathai.

Tavis: Thank you.

Heinz Kerry: I know her well.

Tavis: I knew you would know her. She's been on this program. Her name, lost, I forgot it that fast.

Heinz Kerry: She's wonderful.

Tavis: It was a wonderful honor for her, this woman from Africa, to receive the Nobel Prize for her work around environmental issues. I raise that only because I'm curious as to how - if, in fact, at all - your being from Africa, your being from Mozambique, has informed your work here on environmental issues.

Heinz Kerry: I think almost completely. Not specifically, but completely at its roots. And I would venture to say - although I don't know this, it's just my surmise - that a lot of people who live close to nature, close to the order of nature or the disorder that can happen, learn those things inherently. And I had the great fortune of being born in a time in Africa when Africa was still living close to nature with that kind of order, and then with a dad who, as a doctor, did stuff in the bush on weekends and then in the hospital in town, and took me on rounds.

And very early on, without him even explaining to me, I began to understand cause and effect. Both survival, if you're out playing and wanting to go swimming and surviving - knowing not to go near the water at feeding time: dawn or evening, or something happens. Mosquitoes (unintelligible) in still waters. All kinds of dysentery and problems and babies dying from that, and why.

And how it was preventable. And so the people who got sick, generally speaking in those days, they hadn't minded things, and-or they lived in the bush, and if a child got dysentery and there was no way of getting water into that child, of course they'd die. But generally speaking, it taught me that. And so I always felt safe in nature in that way.

And I think Wangari also knew the common sense of nature, and the common sense of survival, and she got women to start planting little trees to replenish and rebalance the ecosystems and begin to get some rain. Because they were getting decertified, as much of Africa has become in our part of Africa, which was the tree and rain part of Africa.

And so, she did it because of what she observed. I've known Wangari not too long, but since about '91, and I love what she does, I love her daughter. She's working in New York, carrying on the same work.

Tavis: Yeah, we had a great conversation when she came on. I hate that I couldn't remember her name that fast, but I knew you would. Let me go from Mozambique back to Harlem now, and points around the country where African Americans and other people of color live, to that poignant point you made a moment ago, how so many of us - 70 percent of us live, two-thirds of us live so close to these plants.

That problem, it seems to me, Senator, has to have a public policy solution. You've been better than most. I remember the last time around you ran for president, even before then - you and I have talked over the years about your environmental record. For some reason, though, it's not a sexy issue, it's not easy to get traction on, and yet it has to have a public policy component.

We've been talking around here a lot lately on PBS about the fact that I've been honored to moderate two presidential forums this summer, Democrats first at Howard University in June, Republicans later this summer, September at Morgan State in Baltimore. So I get a chance to ask these questions. And one of the issues I intend on raising and pressing is this issue about environmental racism.

The lack of environmental justice. As a public policy issue, what are we not getting? What are we not doing on this front that the candidates ought to get ready for when I start asking these questions?

Kerry: We have a lack of enforcement. We have laws on the books, but we don't have enforcement by the attorney general. I was gonna create an office of environmental justice, where we would have assistant U.S. attorneys in the Justice Department whose job was to go out and prosecute people who break the law with respect to clean water, clean air, and who dump these sites predominantly...

Tavis: Isn't that what the EPA is supposed to do?

Kerry: Yes, of course, the EPA is supposed to do that, but I was going to put it in the Justice Department with direct responsibility there. But in addition, the

EPA has not enforced it. We write about the example in the book of Afton, North Carolina, where this largely minority community wound up having tons of refuse oil dumped in their community, into their water supply, because they didn't have the political power.

Somebody's gotta stand up and fight for that power. In Harlem, 25 percent of the kids have asthma. Think about that. Twenty-five percent of the kids. Most of the cause of hospitalization of children in America in the summertime are asthma attacks that are unnecessary. So you - and 22 percent of hospitalizations are unnecessary, fundamentally.

So our cost to the healthcare system as a whole is borne by people who haven't looked at the connections. We're trying to connect the dots here, so people see. You know why those asthma rates are higher in Harlem? Partly because of these refuse centers and toxic sites, partly 'cause the alternative truck routes go through the powerless community, and they wind up leaving more diesel fumes, and the kids wind up breathing it.

Tavis: What do powerless people, then, in those powerless communities, do about it?

Kerry: The point that we try to make in this book is people aren't powerless. They think they are, but they're not. And if you turn around and - the power of one. Majora Carter organizes a demonstration, and they go out in the street. And then she starts attracting attention, and people say, "Whoa, this counts." And some of these folks may vote with their feet.

They may go into the ballot box and make the difference. We try to point out in this book that this crosses all lines. You asked earlier, what do you do? Is this elitist, or is it not? It's not elitist. It reaches to everybody in America now, and we point out how in South Carolina duck hunters are now losing the ducks because of global climate change. The migratory patterns have changed. If there weren't farmed ducks released in South Carolina, they wouldn't have duck hunting down there.

Arkansas population of ducks are way down. In 19 states in our country, parents cannot take their children fishing and hope to eat the fish if they're lucky enough to catch them. Why? Because of the pollution. Mercury, PCV, and so forth. So the laws are on the books. We were enforcing them in the 1970s and '80s. We were making progress.

But under this administration, they've changed the rule from polluter pays to now everybody else pays, not the polluter. They've changed the rule requiring continued reductions in air quality so that it's less rapidly being reduced. We're gonna have five times more greenhouse gas emissions than we would have if we'd just left the law alone.

These guys have just undone all sense of responsibility for this and what we're trying to do is point out this is not a win-lose situation. You don't act for the environment and lose jobs and lose the economy. We're pointing out you win everywhere. You win on the creation of jobs, you win on better health, you make money, you have better efficiency, America's more energy independent, we export the technology, we become the world's leader. This is all win-win, and we show in the book how a lot of companies are realizing that.

Tavis: All right, I got 20 seconds apiece for each of you - we'll make it fair.

Heinz Kerry: I wanted to talk about lead.

Kerry: We don't have time right now, sweetheart. (Laughter)

Tavis: We'll come back. We'll do lead next time.

Heinz Kerry: I just wanted to say - only because of what it impacts also in African American kids and crime. Lead and crime is proven.

Tavis: See (unintelligible). The way I see it, Barack Obama owes you. You put him out there at your convention, the whole world knows who he is now, and this cat has raised $25 million next to Hillary's 26.

Kerry: He's done very well. He's done very well, no question about it. Listen, I was impressed by him when I met him and asked him to give a speech. He gave a great speech, and he's doing very well.

Tavis: And a woman running, Hillary? What do you make of that?

Heinz Kerry: This is a year of firsts. Isn't it? Actually of many firsts. We've got a Mormon running, a woman running.

Tavis: An African American running.

Heinz Kerry: An African American running.

Tavis: An Hispanic running.

Kerry: Hispanic running.

Heinz Kerry: Hispanic running.

Tavis: Everybody but John Kerry.

Heinz Kerry: Or me. (Laughter)

Tavis: (Laughs) On that note, I'm outta here. Senator, nice to see you.

Heinz Kerry: Nice to see you.

Tavis: Ms. Kerry, nice to see you as well.

Kerry: Great to be with you.