E-mail a friendStephen Prothero
original airdate April 6, 2007
One of America's foremost experts on religion, Stephen Prothero chairs Boston University's religion department and is a specialist in Asian religious traditions in the U.S. He's the author of numerous books, including American Jesus, named one of the best religion books of ‘03 by Publishers Weekly, and Religious Literacy. Prothero is a panelist for the online conversation, "On Faith,' and has written for a variety of publications, including The New York Times. He holds degrees from Harvard and Yale.
Stephen Prothero discusses bringing religion into public schools (1:13).
Full Interview (10:39).
Stephen Prothero
Tavis: Stephen Prothero is chair of the Religion Department at Boston University whose previous book, "American Jesus", was a bestseller back in 2003. His latest is called "Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know - and Doesn’t." He joins us tonight from Chicago. Professor, nice to have you on the program.
Stephen Prothero: Great to be here, Tavis.
Tavis: What is it that we need to know and yet don't?
Prothero: Oh, boy. It's a long list. I mean, one thing is some stuff about the Bible. You know, politicians are referring to the Bible now pretty regularly when it comes to their domestic policy claims if it's about abortion or if it's about the environment or if it's about stem cell research. It's happening, of course, with Democrats and Republicans. I think we need to know some basic things about the Bible and about Christianity to understand what's going on in domestic American politics.
Tavis: I was going to say, if one were a cynic, it's not even being a cynic. If one were a non-believer or a believer of something different, could one not take exception to what you've titled this book "What Every American Needs to Know"? Could one argue that's a bit arrogant or full of hubris?
Prothero: (Laughter) I don't know if it's arrogant or full of hubris. You know, my idea really isn't that elitist, I think. I think it's really to try to get more Americans involved in the political process.
We've got a lot of conversation about religion going on. There's people on the secular left who are trying to run religion out of the public space, and there's people on the religious right who are trying to sort of ram religion down our throats.
I think there's a way to talk about religion that sort of is beyond the culture war sort of language. But in order to do that, ordinary Americans need to know something about Christianity and Islam and other religions in order to participate. That's what the book is trying to do.
Tavis: Tell me why it is that you think then, to your point, that we are so illiterate where religion is concerned in a country that is preaching somewhere 24-7?
Prothero: Well, you know, inside the churches, I think increasingly there's a focus on loving Jesus instead of understanding what He has to say. There's an emphasis on revering the Bible more than reading it. I think our individual religion has become more experiential and more focused on the morals rather than on the stories and on the doctrines of the church.
People in the churches themselves aren't learning that much and, of course, in the public schools, they're learning very little because people are really afraid to invoke the "R" word of religion, which I think needs to be the fourth "R" in education instead of something that we sort of run away from.
Tavis: I'll come back to that point in just a second. Tell me more, though, about what you see as the danger of our remaining in the world that we live today illiterate about religion.
Prothero: Well, you know, just to understand what's going on in the world, look at the war in Iraq. You know, we've committed a hundred fifty thousand troops to this country whose language we don't speak and whose culture we don't understand and whose religion we know nothing about. You know, we as citizens are supposed to be holding our politicians accountable for the choices that they make.
In many cases, the choices that our politicians are making in terms of foreign policy are being made in a religious vacuum as if people overseas weren't motivated by religion. So I think our politicians need to know something about Islam and the citizens need to know something so we can hold these people accountable.
And in terms of, you know, moving outside the Middle East, who knows where the next sort of confrontations are going to be in the foreign realm? Is it going to be in Kashmir? Is it going to be Sri Lanka? These are places where you have Hindu majority countries or Buddhist majority countries. I think our politicians and citizens need to know something about the religions of the world in order to pursue our national interests overseas.
Tavis: Two questions. One, is it realistic likely to think that that will ever happen? That is to say, that we would get interested in the religions of others if, in fact, we live in a nation - to the point you make in this book - where so many of us are, quite frankly, ignorant about the fundamentals of our faith? We'll take that question first.
Prothero: Well, I think we need to do something about it. You know, my book is trying to educate grownups about these sort of things. There's a dictionary at the back of the book where people can look in and educate themselves about the major religions of the world.
But for people who are younger, I think we need to do something about this in the public schools. This is the place where we make citizens. This is the place where we decide what kids need to know. I think kids need to know some basic information about Christianity and the Bible in order to follow what's going on in the domestic arena, and I think they need to know something about the world's religions in order to make sense of the world around them.
You know, a lot of the great literature in the West invokes the Bible. How are we supposed to understand that? How are we supposed to understand what's happening when we walk in a museum and look at Renaissance paintings that are almost all biblical if young people don't understand the allusions to the Bible?
So this is about education for individuals, but it's particularly about trying to get more and more people involved in the political process by understanding what's going on when these politicians are invoking religion as they do.
Tavis: I'm not asking this question out of any particular naiveté, but why is it that I would want to read something that I know in advance that I do not believe in? That's not to cast aspersion on it. It's just to say, quite frankly, that there are people who believe, sir - I mean, there are a number of things.
I read a lot, to put it mildly, and I know there are a number of things that I just quite frankly have no interest wanting to read. I hope that doesn't come across as elitist, but I'm a human being and I've got choices of things I like and things I don't like. Why would I go out and read something about a faith or anything else for that matter that I know I don't believe in? I'm a Christian. Why would I read X, Y or Z?
Prothero: Right. Well, it's really important to make a distinction between one's own faith and talking about religion in a sort of Sunday School church way or a synagogue way and then talking about religion in this more academic, non-devotional way that I'm really proposing here. So this isn't about your own faith.
You know, you can be an atheist and get with the program in terms of, you know, feeling that we should have studies about religion in the public schools. I think this really is a matter - not to put it too strongly - it's a matter of national security.
You know, we need to understand Islam to understand the war on terror. We need to understand Islam to understand what's going on in Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq. Are we going to have another generation of leaders who are going to rise up and going to become president or going to become Secretary of State who don't know anything about the world's religions? That to me is a scandal. It's a real problem.
We have ambassadors to India and there's no requirement that ambassadors to India know something about Hinduism. There's no requirement that ambassadors to Middle Eastern countries know something about Islam. I think that's scandalous. And you don't have to be a Muslim to think that you need to know something about Islam. You just need to be an American.
Tavis: I know that you're a bright man and you have to know that the hairs on certain people's necks I'm sure just coils to hear you even suggest that we ought to bring religion into the school setting.
Prothero: Well, it's not bringing religion. I'm not saying that we should get down and starting praying or start singing hymns. That's where this distinction needs to be made.
Tavis: Right.
Prothero: You know, a lot of people, the only way they encounter and talk about religion is in a faith community. You know, it's inside a mosque, it's inside a church, it's inside a synagogue. But every day of my career, I'm a Religious Studies professor. I talk about religion in a different way. There's a different way to talk about religion.
You know, sometimes they make the analogy to art and art history. You can be a great artist and know nothing about art history. Similarly, you can be an art historian and not be able to draw a stick figure. There's a difference between doing it and studying it. Same with religion. There's a difference between doing it and being a pious person in whatever faith you're in and studying it.
You can be an atheist or you can be a born-again Christian and you still ought to be able to get on the program of saying that we should not leave public school kids in the dark when it comes to religious studies. You know, private school kids are learning about the world's religions. They're learning about the Bible. Why should public school kids be left behind when it comes to this important issue?
Tavis: Speaking of students, I have in front of me on this little blue card that Carol gave to me four questions that come out of a list of questions that you have taken over the years to asking your students because you have come - I'm paraphrasing here - but you've come to believe and come to accept the fact that so many of your students just really aren't prepared where the Bible even is concerned, Christians many of them, though they may be.
I was just a little stunned. I mean, I knew the answers to all four of these, maybe because I spent literally seven days a week for eighteen years of my life growing up in a church literally. That said, four questions that you've asked your students on this quiz that you often give and they don't always get them right.
Number one, name the four gospels. How could a religion student not know the four gospels? Number two, where according to the Bible was Jesus born? Number three, "God helps those who help themselves." Is this in the Bible? If so, where? And number four, President George W. Bush spoke in a first inaugural address of the Jericho Road. What Bible story was he invoking?
I deliberately paused on those last two to give people time to catch up. The first answer, of course, we know. The four gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Where in the Bible was Jesus born? We know that, of course, was Bethlehem.
"God helps those who help themselves." Is that in the Bible and, if so, where? No, it ain't in there. The Bible didn't say that. Benjamin Franklin said that.
And number four, President Bush in his inaugural address the first time around spoke of the Jericho Road. What Bible story was he invoking? Of course, that's the story of the Good Samaritan. That said, you really find students that don't know the answers to these questions in a Religion Department?
Prothero: Well, you know, in fairness to myself (laughter) and my students, this is given on the first day of class and usually it's students who haven't taken a religious studies class before.
But to take that example of the Good Samaritan story by George Bush, only three percent of my students know that that's the Good Samaritan story. He was using that to promote himself as a compassionate conservative. It's an example of politicians using the Bible and using religion for political purposes. We need to be able to hold these people accountable when they do that and we can't unless we know the story.
You know, the other one, "God helps those who help themselves", a newspaper that was responding to my book in Alabama just did a poll on this. They found that people in Alabama did a lot better on things like name the four gospels, but almost a third of them got it wrong in terms that they thought "God helps those who help themselves" is in the Bible.
This is really striking because, not only is it not in the Bible, it's not biblical. The biblical story says, "God helps those who can help themselves." It's a hundred eighty degrees wrong. That really concerns me, particularly if people would think, "Oh, the Bible is telling us essentially to go out and not worry about poor people or not worry about the helpless people." The Bible says the opposite, in my view.
Tavis: The new book by Stephen Prothero is "Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know - and Doesn't." Professor Prothero, thank you for your work. Nice to have you on.
Prothero: Thanks so much for having me, Tavis.
Tavis: My pleasure.
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