E-mail a friendDr. Cornel West
airdate September 18, 2007
A renowned scholar, Princeton professor Dr. Cornel West has written/edited more than 20 books, including Race Matters and, his memoir, Brother West. Outside of academia, he's been described as an "intellectual provocateur," with lectures, TV and film appearances and his spoken-word CDs. He provided philosophical commentary on all three Matrix films, and his disc, "Never Forget: A Journey of Revelations," combined hip-hop and intellectual dialogue. West has also taught at Harvard, Yale and Union Theological Seminary.
Renowned scholar says the Republican Party is in deep crisis because it isn't reaching out to people of color. (2:16)
Dr. Cornel West
Tavis: Always pleased to welcome Dr. Cornel West to this program. The Princeton University professor is out this fall with an acclaimed new CD fusing hip-hop and empowering spoken word. The disc features some terrific collaborations with artists like Prince, KRS-1, Andre 3000, Jill Scott, the late Gerald Levert - the list goes on and on and on.
The new CD is called "Never Forget: A Journey of Revelations." The first track features Talib Kwali and is called "Bushanomics." Take a look.
[Clip]
Tavis: Dr. West, good to see you, as always.
Dr. Cornel West: Always a dear blessing, my brother.
Tavis: Man, good to see you. I want to start first of all by going right to the cover of this CD. Because everybody who I know who has seen it who has a copy of it gets stuck for just a few moments with that cover. Tell me about this cover shot.
West: Yeah it was brother Steve McKeever, who is the visionary founder of Hidden Beach. He came up with this portrait, though, brother. You have precious young African brothers and sisters who are on a slave ship, and there's hundreds of them. They're sitting and standing with dignity, but on their way into the nightmare of White supremacy and enslavement called America, or the new world.
And so much of our music really ushers from this context of on the one hand the wounds, bruises, and scars, but on the other hand this unbelievable creativity, imagination, intelligence, and genius of them.
Tavis: Speaking of Steve McKeever, who is a genius, that's a genius cover here on the one hand. On the other hand, you've gotta be prepared to wrestle with this before you open this thing up.
West: Yeah, that's true.
Tavis: I wonder whether or not there's some folk who you think might be turned off by a cover like this because of the honesty it takes to even deal with the cover, much less what you about to get on the inside.
West: No, but I think it's very important, though, brother, in the musical tradition in general - Black musical tradition in particular - you have to be committed to truth. You're not committed to just being well-adjusted to the narrow sensibilities or sentiments of your audience. You wanna uplift your audience; you want to be able to challenge your audience, as well as entertain. You wanna delight and instruct at the same time.
The very thing you've been doing for nearly five years in your loving service to the public, though, brother. You want to unsettle your audience and at the same time you want to delight. You want to keep a little smile on their face as they wrestling with some deep issues.
Tavis: I read a review of the piece - of the CD - where you refer to the record as danceable education. I like that - danceable education.
West: Yeah, that comes out of Nietzsche's text where he talks about the attempt to engage in a kind of singing paideia - P-A-I-D-E-I-A - which means attentiveness to serious issues; not the frivolous, but the serious. Not the superficial, but the substantial. But also the cultivation of the self that wrestles with history, that wrestles with mortality, that wrestles, in fact, with one's own memories so that the very way one sings becomes a form of memory, and the very way one talks and stylizes space and time and how one talks, is a certain kind of historical memory, in a way.
But most importantly, it's about a maturity, though, brother, and I think the younger generation, you see, they look at me and they say, "What is this old brother doing in hip-hop?" And I say, "Well, I am the Curtis Mayfield, Stax, Motown, Philly sound version of hip-hop." (Laughter) So I consider myself in the hip-hop community.
So when my dear brother KRS-1, who's been lecturing in my courses at Princeton for years, says, "Brother, you are part of hip-hop," I say, "Yes, but I know I'm not at the center." I'm not a great rapper like KRS-1 or Talib or Rhymefest. I'm certainly not a singer like Jill Scott. She got a new album out.
Tavis: Indeed.
West: God bless her, and it's serious, too. (Unintelligible)
Tavis: I gotta explain that before you go further. That's a little inside joke, Doc. Doc is just still giddy about this.
West: That was so nice, right?
Tavis: So Jill Scott, one of the towering artists of our time, no question about it, Jill Scott was shooting a video for her new record down the street from my office one day. Dr. West happened to be in town and I got a phone call that Jill Scott was down the street shooting this video.
So I said, "Doc, let's go down the street, holler at Jill Scott," who I know and love. We went down the street to holler at Jill Scott and while we were on the set watching her record this video, she insisted Dr. West and I come be a part of the video on the spot. I'm like, "No, no."
West: And you didn't want to do it at all.
Tavis: I was like "No." I said, "No, we didn't come -”
West: I'm trying to drag you into it.
Tavis: (Unintelligible.)
West: (Unintelligible) Jill Scott, I said, "Hey, we get you."
Tavis: You literally did. You pulled me into the scene.
West: Oh, yes, I dragged you right on in.
Tavis: I'm like, "I didn't come dressed to be in no Jill Scott video." But anyway, if you see Jill Scott's video for her, one of the - thanks - the single, the first release, it's called "Hate on Me."
West: "Hate On Me."
Tavis: Great song. You'll see Dr. -
West: Hate on me because my mind is free.
Tavis: That's right.
West: It's a beautiful thing to be a free person and a free Black man and a free Black woman. It's a beautiful thing. But it means that your commitment to truth where the very condition of truth is to allow suffering to speak, and your commitment to justice, the very condition of justice to allow the voices of those Sly Stone called ordinary people, to make sure those voices are heard to shape their destiny.
And that's the best of the Black musical tradition. That's why I invoked the Curtis Mayfield, the John Coltranes, the Sarah Vaughns, and others.
Tavis: I wanna go back to something you said before we got into this wonderful Jill Scott story. You were talking about KRS-1, who's on the project, who's lecture in your classes for years -
West: Yeah, he's my dear brother.
Tavis: - at the university. That word lecture struck me, because the one thing that the hip-hop generation does not like is to be lectured.
West: Yes, that's true.
Tavis: So how do you navigate this line of putting forth a project that honors the tradition, that involves many of the towering artists - KRS-1, Talib, Rhymefest, and others - involves these wonderful artists in the project, reminds them of our past, but doesn't lecture them? That's a fine line to walk.
West: That's a very crucial question.
Tavis: That's the last thing they want to do, is be lectured.
West: Because you don't want to be didactic, and you certainly in no way want to be arrogant, condescending, or haughty. But they do want to be taught - that's why that danceable education, that singing paideia, you gotta give them the groove, gotta give them the funk, and you gotta give them your love of the music in which there is a message, going back to the O'Jays and the late, great, Gerald Levert is on here too.
And when we got together, brother, Mike Daley (sp?), my dear brother in Sacramento who came up with the idea, and of course my blood brother, Clifton West, birthday just yesterday, God bless him - he and I grew up together, slept in the same room for many, many, many years - when we got together, and Derek Allen (sp?), as well - he's no longer with us, but he's a good brother and has done some wonderful work with us - that we said we got to do something that has a message in the music, but people got to be able to feel the groove.
They have to be able to dance to the beat. And so you're absolutely right - you don't want teaching in the didactic sense, but there's different ways of teaching.
Tavis: Now, I want to talk about some of the tracks on this CD. It occurs to me, though, speaking of teaching - and I'd almost forgotten this, but the last time you did one of these (laughs), it cost you your spot at Harvard. Now, it was your choice to leave, and we'll talk about that, but it just occurs to me the last time you did one of these, Larry Sommers, the former president of Harvard, didn't like it so much.
Front page, "New York Times," for days. You are at Princeton, in fact, one could argue, because of your last CD.
West: (Laughter) Or at least that first CD. And I did another one in between, but it wasn't a bestseller, either. But no, "Sketches of my Culture," I'm still very proud of it. Because see, for me, though, brother, my point of reference as an educator in the deepest sense is to try to unsettle minds and touch souls and motivate bodies and persons in such a way they can become forces fro good.
They can muster the courage to think critically for themselves, muster the courage to love, and muster the courage to hope. And that means, then, that even though I'm a professor at Harvard, the president's office and his judgment is not my fundamental point of reference. If I can affect one brother or sister of whatever color on the block, I would not have lived in vain; I would not have labored in vain.
And so, brother, Larry Sommers, he's coming at me and saying, "Well, it's an embarrassment, your association with hip-hop." I'm saying, "What you talking about? That's a compliment for me; I'm trying to affect young people."
Tavis: But not for a Harvard professor.
West: No, but that's his Harvard. I'm as much Harvard as he is. I had to tell him that in his face. I said, "I am as much Harvard as you are. It's just we got different Harvards." That's true in America; we just in Mexico last week. We are as American as George Bush, but it's a different America. But they ain't gonna take America from us, because we got Martin, we got (unintelligible), we got our parents, and so forth and so on.
Harvard's the same way. So we struggle over the legacy of Harvard, struggle over the legacy of America, and in the end, we are human, we struggling over the legacy of what it means to be human.
Tavis: Since you went there, Barack Obama running for president, obviously. You're supporting Barack Obama; Barack went to Harvard, as did his wonderful wife, Michele. So many Black folk in our society were making grand -
West: That's true. W. E. B. Dubois, oh, yeah.
Tavis: Historically and in a contemporary sense, so many African Americans are making monumental contributions, have been educated at Harvard, you cannot hate on Harvard for producing contributors to our society. Steve McKeever, in fact, Hidden Beach, out of Harvard.
West: Harvard law brothers.
Tavis: But here's the point, though - the question, at least. How did you, from Sacramento, California, how do you end up going to Harvard and not allowing an institution like Harvard - it's not so much about Harvard as it is about the Ivy League - how do you go into these grand institutions and allow them not to change you in ways that folk in your hometown can no longer recognize?
West: Well, that's a good question, though, brother. They used to say on the block that Harvard has ruined more Negroes than bad whiskey (laughter), and there's something to that. You get up there and get Harvarditis and Yaleitis, Princetonitis, or whatever. Stanforditis. But I went in with this attitude - I got it from my dear father, the late Clifton West.
You have to go into a place, allow that place to shape you in the best of what it is, and you want to shape that place in the best of who you are. Because you gotta change, now - you gotta change. The question of whether that change is going to be a form of maturity or whether it's going to be a form of uncritical deference and a kind of fanatic reverence without any serious engagement of what the history of that institution is - Harvard's got a White supremacist legacy, it's got a male supremacist legacy, it's got an anti-Semitic legacy, and a homophobic legacy.
It's also got a legacy that's critical of those legacies. So you choose to be a part of the legacy that's critical, and Harvard has much to offer. At the same time, I was someone before I arrived at Harvard; I was deeply loved, bombarded by love. My family, Shiloh Baptist Church, Willie P. Cook, Deacon Hinton, and so forth and so on.
Loved by Little League coaches, loved by brothers and sisters in (unintelligible) and so forth. I bring that baggage with me proudly, with dignity, standing, like Sly Stone told us to do in the '60s and '70s, willing to take action with courage and compassion. So you get this fusion, and then the hybridity comes out. Here come this new kind of person.
Because remember now, paideia, going back to paideia, and the singing paideia (unintelligible) thing, it's a learning how to die in order to live more intensely, critically, and abundantly. Because when you die, you give up certain assumptions and presuppositions in order to be reborn into a higher level of maturity - it's like falling in love.
Old self dies, new self emerges entangled with another self. Or as a Christian - old self dies, new self emerges. Now, many ways, grounded on a gift of grace that makes you in some way a reborn being, in a certain sense. And that's what paideia is. When I went to Harvard, I was willing to learn how to die to do what? To emerge stronger, more courageous, maybe more decent and loving, because in the end, brother, as you know and I know - and I love your cup; Starbucks love wins, though, brother - that love is the core and center of it all.
All the rest is the sound of brass and tinkling cymbal, though, brother. And justice is what love looks like in public in the same way democracy is what justice is in practice. Love is at the core of it. And to be a Black man knowing that I come from a hated people, an abused people, to love myself without putting others down is so freeing and emancipating and liberating that you're able to live your life by trying to love through the darkness, whatever it is.
Wrestling with the catastrophic, wrestling with the horrendous, wrestling with the traumatic - because that's all we're doing. We're wrestling with the scandalous and the monstrous, and how do we love our way through that kind of catastrophic process? Birth, death, illness, break-up, on and on as we make our move from womb to tomb.
Tavis: Now, all that depth you just heard now is exactly what you get on the CD, but he does it in a form that is danceable and entertaining.
West: With a whole lot of friends - with a whole lot of friends. Prince, though, brother, Prince.
Tavis: I wanna go there.
West: Let me say Prince, just stand up. (Laughter) Just stand up, man.
Tavis: Say Prince, we'll just stand up (unintelligible).
West: Prince, just stand up, though, brother. That's it, that's right.
Tavis: All right.
West: We're talking about an unadulterated genius, man.
Tavis: All right, that said, let's start with the Prince track. I was saying that so much of what the audience just heard is what they get on the CD but in a danceable, entertaining, enlightening sort of way.
West: That's true.
Tavis: Let me start - I just want to pick three tracks right quick. The Prince track - tell me about the Prince track and how you got Prince to do something he doesn't do, which is to appear on other folks' CDs.
West: Yeah, no, he's never done that, though, brother. It was such an expression of deep love for me, that all I could do is just embrace it and say, “Brother, I love you back. Not just because you're a genius, not just because you're the artist among us in so many ways, but because your humanity is such that you figure that this would be such a force for good that you would be willing to allow me to work together and do a kind of duet.”
Just the idea, man (laughter), in parenthesis, Prince, C. West, songwriter. I said, “Hey, dude, I'm ready to die, man.” (Laughter) I got my daughter, I got Zatune (sp?) and I got my son, Cliff, who himself is a fascinating and powerful artist and writer in his own right. So I got people to stay around for. But at that point, with Prince, man - because now James Brown's gone, George Clinton's the only great funk master out there, really. And then you got Prince, man. So for him to be a part of this was quite moving, though, brother.
Tavis: I mentioned Andre 3000 earlier. You got Andre on this.
West: Yeah, man, and Andre's - again, man, the love that Andre showed me, though, brother. Outkast, I think the greatest hip-hop duo ever from ATL, from Atlanta. For him to be able to reach out like this and do a thing together where we talk about the nature of time, the nature of learning how to die, the nature of reborn - right there in his song. It's a beautiful thing.
Tavis: You mentioned Jill Scott earlier; let me jump, then, to - well, let me just promote myself.
West: Yes. That's right, you (unintelligible), that's true.
Tavis: I was trying to skip around it (laughter), but we've been talking about everybody else, might as well talk about Travis. Track number six on here, which actually a lot - I've been reading about the CD; a lot of folk have actually been writing about this particular track. And not because I'm in it, but a lot of people are writing about it because of the subject matter.
Track number six is a track called "The N Word," and it is a conversation that I actually moderate with wonderful music -
West: Yeah, James Brown background -
Tavis: James Brown funk background.
West: - brother (unintelligible) we got Italian brother and brother Derek Allen doing the music.
Tavis: So we got some nice funk underneath it, but it's really a conversation between you and Professor Michael Eric Dyson that I moderate about the N-word. Why important to put that - I was asked to do it and I did it because you asked me, but why important to put a track called "The N Word" with that debate between the two of you, and Dyson takes one side of the use of the N-word; you take another side of it. Why important to put a track like that on this record?
West: I think because we want to speak to the realities especially of young brothers and sisters who are wrestling with self-hatred, self-doubt, self-violation, self-flagellation, and self-destruction. You can see it in chocolate cities across the board. And the White supremacy inside of Black people leads us to demean ourselves and devalue ourselves; to think we're less beautiful, less intelligence, less moral. The niggerization of Black people was precisely -
Tavis: Wait, wait, wait, wait - what was that?
West: The niggerization of us.
Tavis: What do you mean by niggerization?
West: The attempt to view ourselves as less than human, and thereby become deferential to White supremacist authorities for 400 years, you see. So what Dyson and I are talking about is how do we try to promote a renaissance of self-respect, a renaissance of self-love among Black people, but especially young Black people? Especially young Black people.
So then, brother Dyson and others say, “Well, nigga, N-I-G-G-A, is really a term of endearment. It's really an expression of love.” I say that's fine, because it's all about the love, now, brother. But see once we begin to love each other and love others, you got something that is hard to stop. Because love is not some sentimental, wayward sentiment.
It's a steadfast commitment to the well-being of others. Our Jewish brothers and sisters have this word, hesset, which is a steadfast love. "Do justly, love mercifully, walk humbly with thy God," Michael, 6:8. (Unintelligible) said, "Love thy neighbor," Leviticus, 19:18, that a Palestinian Jew named Jesus, who means the world to me, would pick up on.
See, so this love talk of Martin King, the love talk of a love (unintelligible) John Coltrane, the love talk of Toni Morrison's "Beloved," that's serious. That's why we go back to Curtis Mayfield, that's why we go back to Aretha, trying to keep this legacy to the younger generation. Because our younger generation, though, brother, they too unloved. They not loved enough.
Tavis: To that point, though, Maya Angelou, who has been here so many times, sat in this same chair -
West: Sat in this very same chair - she's something else.
Tavis: Dr. Maya Angelou says, though, that back to this N-word and the love that our young people ought to be receiving, and their, in her judgment, misuse of the word, Dr. Maya says - Dr. Angelou says that if you pour poison in a vial, or if you pour poison in a piece of Baccarat crystal, no matter what it's in, it's still poison, and it'll still kill you just as fast.
So to your point about whether you say N-I-G-G-A or N-I-G-G-E-R, her point is that it's still poison, and that there really ought not to be a word about it. So I suspect she was happy earlier this summer when the NAACP buried, symbolically, the N-word.
West: Buried the word. Yeah, but the probably is, you see, these kind of symbolic gestures that don't affect stuff on the ground are misleading, too. Because the NAACP needs a renaissance (laughter) in self-respect, in terms of how some of them treat each other. So it's not just the young folk using the word. I know a lot of Negroes who never use the word nigger and still don't love themselves.
So it's that action on the ground that's the key. Martin King, for me, could use the N-word all he want, because he loved us enough to die for us, brother. Malcolm could have used it. Elijah could have used it - Elijah loved Black people, even though he didn't love White brothers and sisters enough, and I'm a Christian, so I think we gotta spill over in other communities, right?
But the thing is is that the love that is so crucial - and we gotta make it concrete. When I think of your Covenant movement, brother, and what you were able to do, your struggles with these debates that's taking place to make presidential candidates accountable and responsible to all of us as both American human beings but especially the most vulnerable, that's love and service.
It has to do with sacrifice; it has to do with persistence and perseverance. Most importantly, it has to do with courage, because when you love somebody, you got courage. You got a mental and moral strength to persevere in the face of whatever danger, whatever difficulty, and whatever fear that you have. We need that kind of renaissance, but it can't be simply symbolic, and that's what young folk know.
That's why when they see this memorial for the word and there's eulogies preached and so forth, they want to see sermons; they don't want to hear them. You see what I mean? Where is your action? Examples are the go-cart of judgment. Bad judgment, bad examples; great judgment, great examples. Who are the examples?
Jesus. Who are the examples? Amos. Mohammed, Martin, Gandhi, Mandela, my father, your mother, my mother. All - there's all colors, now. Those are the great examples. Let's keep the focus on them and their action and behavior; not just the words that people are buzzing around here.
Tavis: Since you went there -
West: Bush never used the N-word. Look at his attitude toward Katrina.
Tavis: I got your point (laughs).
West: He might as well just be niggerizing us openly, you see what I mean?
Tavis: So let me ask you right quick, since you went there, it's in the news today, so it's a good question to ask. It's been announced by PBS that four of the Republican candidates have told us, at the moment, at least, that they're not going to be at our debate September 27th in Baltimore. We asked them to reconsider; we think it's a lost opportunity.
Mr. Thompson, Mr. Giuliani, Mr. McCain, Mr. Romney. What do you make of those four Republicans deciding not to come to an opportunity to talk to Americans of color?
West: I just think it's a grave mistake; it's a bad judgment. You hope that, of course, it doesn't express what many believe, which is that it's the basic pattern Republicans party. They've been able to push Black folk to the corner; they thought somehow they could appropriate enough slices of brown to go along with their predominantly White followership to win.
I think the Republican Party is in such deep crisis that in fact it will lose, because it can no longer mobilize enough brown. It can't reach out to Black, and therefore, they have very little to say. I applaud brother Huckabee and the others who are willing to come, but the Republican Party is in deep crisis. We wonder, where is Condoleezza Rice at this moment?
Where is Clarence Thomas at this moment? Where are all the Black Republicans who talk about a Republican party being so fair and willing to embrace a variety of different people? Let's hear their voices, as it were. But most importantly, what I love about what you're doing, though, brother, is that we have got to take the higher moral ground.
We've been saying for a long time Republicans, for the most part, you're unconcerned and indifferent to poor people and working people, and people of color. And indifference is the one thing that makes the very angels weep. Show us that you are wrong. By now showing up, they're telling us we were right in the first place.
But the challenge is that whoever the Democrats produce is going to win, and ironically, that means that whoever convinces Black people is going to win. That's why brother Obama, who I support, I love my brother, he's a decent, brilliant brother, but he's got challenges. Hillary Clinton - Clinton's legacy, ambiguous in many ways, like brother Bill.
I'm very critical of the Welfare bill and a whole host of other things he did, that she's now slightly ahead of my dear Obama in the Black community. He's got to be able to move forward and still bring the White brothers and sisters with him to win. But we're at a very precarious moment here now, brother.
Tavis: He doesn't hold back in the classroom, he doesn't hold back on TV shows, and doesn't hold back on his CD, and we are all the better for it. The new CD is from Cornel West, "Never Forget: A Journey of Revelations," on sale now. Dr. West, an honor to have you here, as always.
West: Always a blessing. And brother, nearly five years of love and service to the public. I love you, brother, and respect you.
Tavis: We're glad to have you.
West: Tell you that.
Tavis: You are too kind, I thank you.
West: No, I'm telling the truth.
Tavis: That's our show for tonight.
Back to September 18, 2007