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Illinois Senator discusses being distantly related to Dick Cheney. (1:22)
 

Full interview. (23:57)
 

Tavis: I'm pleased to welcome Senator Barack Obama back to this program. The Illinois Democrat is, of course, a candidate for his party's presidential nomination in 2008. In the Senate, he sits on the powerful Foreign Relations Committee, and in that capacity has been a key voice in the debate over Iraq.

His most recent "New York Times" bestseller is "The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream." The book out in paperback November the 6th, as if there's anybody in America who does not have it in hardback already. I was just reading, you sold over a million copies of that book.

Sen. Barack Obama: We did all right.

Tavis: Isn't that amazing?

Obama: Almost as many books as you sell, Tavis.

Tavis: Please, get out of here. Good to see you, man.

Obama: You doing all right?

Tavis: Yeah, I'm hanging in, you all right?

Obama: Good. I do fine.

Tavis: Seriously, that's an amazing thing, to have your personal story sell, and your viewpoint sell a million copies plus in hardback.

Obama: It's a great honor. The first book that I wrote, "Dreams From My Father," ended up selling a million copies in paperback, and that was out of print for 10 years, just about. So it's been a real blessing, and you're right - what it does is it gives people a chance to get to know me in a way that usually, you don't get to know a presidential candidate.

And in fact, up in New Hampshire they've organized these book clubs where supporters will invite people not for money but just to read the book, because their feeling is the more that they get to know where I'm coming from, the better off we'll do.

Tavis: What's your sense - and this requires setting your humility aside for just a second - what's your sense, though, why yours connected in that way? And I raise that, Barack - Senator Obama - because there are so many people on the campaign trail who, when they decide to run, put a book out, of course. But yours is just blowing away everybody else's.

Obama: I think part of it was the first book was written well before I ever thought about politics. And so it was personal, I think it was candid enough where people said, "Oh, he obviously wasn't thinking about running for office when he wrote that." (Laughter) And so I think that there was an element of trust where people felt that hopefully I'm not just going to give the canned responses. And that ended up carrying over to the second book, as well.

Tavis: In either of those first two books, though, who know - you and Dick Cheney, cousins?

Obama: Listen, the - I don't think I'm going to the family reunion. (Laughter) I don't know how I'll be greeted. But no, these folks have been doing all these genealogies on me and they've found all sorts of strange connections.

Tavis: This has got to be the strangest, though.

Obama: Well, listen, if you go back far enough (laughter), you got all kinds of crooks and thieves in your family. I'm not necessarily drawing that analogy, I'm just saying. You don't know who's back there.

Tavis: What did you make of that, for those who don't know this, so Lynn Cheney, the vice president's wife, has been doing some genealogy connected to her latest book, and lo and behold, way back, what, eight generations ago?

Obama: Eight generations, or something.

Tavis: You and Mr. Cheney apparently have some distant relative in - what did you make of that story when it came out?

Obama: I actually knew about it, because somebody had done some genealogy before, and they had sent it to me, this long sheet. And it had all these famous names, Mark Twain and this and that and the other, and then Dick Cheney. And I took a pause, I just said, "Well, as long as he's okay with it, I'm okay with it too, because I'm not going to stop talking about these messed-up policies in Iraq just because - "

Tavis: Just because he's your cousin, huh?

Obama: Yeah, we're not kissing cousins, as they say. (Laughter)

Tavis: Let me switch gears and jump right into it. I've got you for the full show and I'm glad you're here on the west coast for a change.

Obama: Good, good.

Tavis: How do you respond - a lot of commentary about it, but how do you respond - first of all, let me just say congratulations. And I say this with all sincerity because it is mind-boggling, even more mind-boggling than you and Dick Cheney being cousins is the fact that you have raised more money than anybody, Democrat or Republican, running for office - $75 million. Ancestors are jumping up and down screaming at the thought of you raising that kind of money.

Obama: Well, especially because we've raised more money in small increments, from small donors, than all the Democratic candidates combined. So it's reflective of the grassroots enthusiasm that we've been seeing in the campaign, and the challenge now for us is to make sure that we get known beyond that enthusiastic base of supporters to the broader public.

And that's obviously a big challenge when you're running a national race and you've only been on the national scene basically for three and a half, four years.

Tavis: What's your response to people who say he's raising money but still stuck in these polls?

Obama: Right. Well, look, we always viewed Hillary Clinton as the default candidate. You and I both know that in the Democrat party, the Clinton name - that's a good brand. People like Bill, they like Hillary, we always knew going into this race that we were going to be the underdogs.

And the key for us always was that if people knew me as well as they knew her, then we would win. And the only way we could do that is to focus on the early states. We can't run a national campaign because we can't run, even as much money as I've raised, we can't advertise all across the country. So our key strategy has always been we focus on Iowa, Nevada, South Carolina, New Hampshire. That we talk to people about not only healthcare and education and energy and Iraq, all the things that people - all the candidates are talking about, but also talk about who can bring the country together to solve these problems?

Who can overcome the special interests that stand in the way of solving these problems? Who's going to be straight with the voters and tell the truth? And if we can deliver that message in the early states and do well, then I think that that will translate into the national. But we're not going to see a change in the national polls until the first votes are cast in Iowa.

Those are reflective of the casual voter, the person who doesn't know, isn't watching the nightly news reports all the time, who says, “Yeah, I sort of like Clinton, and Obama? I like him too, but I don't know enough about him.” And that's our challenge; we've got to close that gap.

Tavis: Two quick follow-ups on that before we move on. I'm just reading this stuff every day. You, of course, are the guy, you're the candidate. How much truth to the stories that we're reading that you are having to do some damage control where your supporters are concerned who are fretting - your wonderful answer not withstanding - fretting that if these numbers in the polls don't start to move, the campaign's in trouble?

Obama: No, listen. Campaigns always go through ups and downs, and what I've always said to my folks is if you were looking for the safe choice, you shouldn't be supporting a 46-year-old Black guy named Barack Obama (laughter) to be the next leader of the free world. That's not where the smart money went, especially when you're running against the dominant political force in the Democratic Party over the last 20 years.

People have gotten involved in our campaign because they believe that politics as usual, business as usual, is not adequate. It's not that they dislike some of the other candidates. They just think that if - let's take the example of healthcare. If we can't break the gridlock between Democrats and Republicans, but if we also can't overcome the insurance company and the drug company lobbyists that have a lock on the debate in Washington, we're not going to get anything passed. It doesn't matter whether John Edwards or my plan or Hillary's plan is better, and that, I think, people understand.

The second thing my supporters understand, the day I'm inaugurated, this country looks at itself differently and the world looks at America differently. And if you believe that we've got to heal America and we've got to repair our standing in the world, then I think my supporters believe that I am a messenger who can deliver that message around the world in a way that no other candidate can do.

Tavis: They would look at the U.S. differently for what reason or reasons?

Obama: Well, I think if you've got a guy named Barack Hussein Obama, that's a pretty good contrast to George W. Bush, to start with. Somebody who's lived in a foreign country, somebody who knows what it's like to see family members in dire poverty, somebody who has a grandmother who lives in a village in Africa without running water and without heat and without indoor plumbing - a village that's been devastated by HIV/AIDS.

When I got to Africa, I'm not speaking based on what I've read or what I hear in a hearing or what I've seen visiting the ambassador's residence in Nairobi. I'm speaking from experience, in the same way that when I talk about issues facing the inner city here in the United States; I'm not looking at it from a distance. I'm speaking from somebody who's worked in public housing projects and dealt with trying to find ex-felons a better life for themselves. And so that experience, I think, gives me more credibility to talk about these issues.

Tavis: Let me go back to Hillary Clinton for just a second, since we raised her earlier. One could argue that these national polls notwithstanding, people really don't like Hillary Clinton. You say that people like the Clintons, they like Bill, they like Hillary.

One could argue - if you dig deep in these numbers, one could argue at least that they really don't like Hillary, and that these numbers seem to suggest in many of these polls that she's not the most electable Democrat in a face-off with two or three people on the other side of the aisle, in part because her negatives are so high.

Obama: Are very high.

Tavis: All right, so what do you make of that?

Obama: See, I think the question is can we get beyond the gridlock that we experienced during the nineties? Who's in the best position to point forward? And part of the reason - when I sat down with Michelle and I said, "Should we do this race?" We asked three questions. One, could our family survive it? And since Michelle's exceptional and my children are above average, we figured they'd be okay.

The second question was, could I win? And we looked at it and we said we can win, because I'm not interested in running a symbolic race; that's been done. The third question was, is there something I can do that no other Democratic candidate can do? And what I believe is that the country is ready to get beyond the old arguments that we've been having since the sixties.

About Vietnam and the sexual revolution and the role of faith in society - all these things that we've been arguing about, and the American people have moved beyond that. And that's part of the reason why you see consistently in polls that among Independents and among Republicans, we do very well. When we get these big crowds, I'm always shaking hands afterwards and I always have folks come, "I'm a Republican, Barack, but I support you."

And I lean over and I say, "Thank you, why are we whispering?" (Laughter) But they almost surprise themselves. But I think it has to do less with the positions I'm taking than the tone I'm taking, which is I'm going to listen to everybody, and I want to break down this red state-blue state divide.

That's part of the reason why the convention speech I did in 2004 went so well, is because it's not that my positions were different, but the language and the tone was one of let's unify the country.

Tavis: Your dear friend, my dear friend and your supporter, Dr. Cornel West and I were in a conversation the other day and we were going back and forth, as we tend to do about these issues, and the point was made that if you had the support - speaking of symbolism - if you had the support that Jesse Jackson had in Black America in '84 or '88, this race would be over.

Of course, I shot back if you had that number in Black America, you might not have $75 million, either. What do you make of the fact that if you had Jesse's support in Black America in this primary, it'd be over; you'd be the champion right now?

Obama: Well, what is absolutely true is this, that Black folks certainly have fondness for the Clintons. Black women in particular have fondness for the Clintons. And if right now nationally the poll numbers showed us getting that kind of 80, 90 percent African American support, then -

Tavis: It'd be over with.

Obama: Well, basically, that gap between me and Hillary would be entirely closed.

Tavis: Precisely.

Obama: And look, what's going on, I think, in the African American community is the same thing I saw in the U.S. Senate race. Up until a month before the race I was getting 25 percent of the Black vote, and the reason is because Black folks didn't know me. And they're looking, Barack Obama? We don't know, is he - where is he from, and what's he about?

And we went up on TV and by the end of it we got 80, 85 percent. And now my support in Illinois is 90 percent among African Americans. The same thing you're starting to see happen in this race in those states where I'm active. So in South Carolina, I started off at 10 percent. Now we lead among African Americans, and that's before we've run any television.

But the interesting thing among Black voters is what we hear again and again. Number one is, folks are somewhat concerned about my safety, and I've got to remind them that I've got the best protection on Earth, we're going to be all right - don't fear on that. The second thing is, they're not sure White folks will vote for me.

And what I try to say is, don't sell ourselves short. Don't anticipate that this can't be done, because when we've made progress at each juncture, it's been because we made a decision. We're going to break through those barriers. You can't tell me that I can't do something. People said I couldn't win that U.S. Senate race.

We won it by record numbers. I got the most votes of any elected official in history in Illinois. We won the White vote, Black vote, Hispanic vote, Asian vote, rural vote, urban vote - don't tell me I can't do it. And what I want us to do is to focus on the fact that this can be done, and then once people break through that threshold, then they can ask themselves okay, is this guy a guy who is going to care about me and work on behalf of my issues?

And there, I can say look, look at my track record. As a community organizer, I didn't go to the fancy white shoe firm. I worked as a civil rights lawyer; I worked in public housing. I have fought on issues that are hard, like criminal justice issues where there's a political cost to pay. And I will put my record against any of those candidates and once they realize that record, then I think we're going to be in a strong position to win.

Tavis: You mentioned a moment ago your personal safety and in addition to being a fine candidate, you must be a prophet, as well, because I was literally in my car driving to the studio to have this conversation with you today, and you and I are both admirers, lovers - I certainly see myself, and I think you do, we've talked about it many times off camera, we see ourselves as part of the Kingian tradition in this country.

I'm in my car on the way to the studio just an hour or so ago, listening to some King stuff, and I brought the CD in and I want to play a clip from you. This is King speaking at a church in your hometown in 1966, talking about his own fear for his own life. As you know, he didn't talk about this very often in public, but here he is in a church in Chicago, dateline 1966, Barack Obama's hometown. The words of Dr. King. Take a listen; I want to ask you something about this.

"Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.:" They started making nasty telephone calls and came to the point that some days more than 40 telephone calls would come in threatening my life, the life of my family, the life of my children. I took it for a while in a strong manner, but I never will forget one night, very late. It was around midnight, and you can have some strange experiences at midnight.

Tavis: He goes on to talk about the fear for his own life - this, of course, King speaking about Montgomery, Alabama when he was leading the movement there. I was listening to that and thought about you on the way to the studio, wondering how it is that you process that. And so you led me into it when you suggested, as Michelle has, your wife, suggested, that Black folks should not be afraid to vote for you because of what they think might happen to you.

We know that there's Secret Service all around this studio right now; other candidates don't have that because of threats against your life. How are you dealing with that, seriously?

Obama: It's not something I think about. Part of - when I listen to that tape is I think about the courage that that man went through, because he didn't have Secret Service protection, and law enforcement in the towns where he was working were against him. Some of them were Klansmembers. And so I can't even comprehend the degree of courage that was required, and yet look what he did each and every day, getting up, speaking out, marching, leading.

And it just reminds me of that tradition where the stuff we go through now - I get called names, right? People call me up, they say, “Oh, I'm sorry about that bad newspaper article about you.” “Oh, that review on the debate, that was rough; I thought that was really unfair.” And I'm thinking, listen, nobody's throwing a brick through my window.

And I do think that the country has changed in a profound way, and when I'm traveling through Iowa, which doesn't have a large African American population, and you see the responses of people and the crowds we're attracting, you really get a sense that folks are ready to transcend some of these issues. Now that's not to say that the country's going to be colorblind in this race.

Obviously, that will be an issue both for Blacks and Whites, and one of the things my candidacy has surfaced is people have some confused views, both in the White community and the African American community about this. But what it does say is I think the vast majority of Americans right now, what they want to know is how are you going to help me hang on to my house now that the sub-prime lending crisis is in full force?

What are you going to do to help me deal with my job now that the plant moved to China? How can I save for my child's college tuition and my own retirement at the same time? And if I can answer those questions effectively in the last few months of this campaign, then we have an excellent chance of getting this nomination.

Tavis: Speaking of the issues, one of the strategies that it's clear that the Obama campaign is employing now is to remind people of your opposition to the Iraq war before the vote even went down, to contrast that with one Hillary Clinton and others who voted to support the war and give President Bush what he asked for. The question is whether or not you think that strategy works, and I ask that against the backdrop of whether or not looking back and reminding them of what was is a good strategy versus where the American people are now, with trying to figure out who has the best solution, pardon the pun, regarding a way forward?

Obama: Right, well, two points I'd make on it. Number one, you'd be surprised the number of people who - again, this goes back to knowing me - don't realize that I opposed the war at the beginning. So part of politics is redundancy. You've just got to repeat stuff sometimes, even when you get tired of saying it. (Laughter) You've got to keep on repeating it, because you assume everybody knows, and it turns out they don't.

But the second thing is I don't talk about my opposition to the war, which has been consistent since 2002, just to say I told you so. It points to how I exercise judgment around foreign policy, and that is relevant to looking forward. Because part of what got us into Iraq was a conventional brand of thinking about our foreign policy that not just Republicans but Democrats bought into, and Hillary, to some degree, still buys into.

And so when we have a debate and I say we need to meet with all leaders - I'm not afraid of losing a propaganda battle because I'm meeting with Hugo Chavez. But for America not to meet with these leaders sends a signal that we're arrogant and that we're going to do things on our own, and that will not repair the damage that's been done to our foreign policies as a consequence of George Bush, and that will make it more difficult for us to mobilize the international support whether to get Iran to stand down on nuclear weapons or to deal with the situation in Darfur.

So what I'm saying is if you look at that opposition to the war, I didn't just stumble into it. I laid out precisely what I thought would happen, and I want voters to understand we're going to have another set of difficult decisions on Iran or North Korea or anything out there that we don't know yet, and they need to ask themselves, shouldn't it be relevant who got the most important foreign policy issue of our generation right, and who got it wrong, and how that will bear on their decision-making as president.

Tavis: Is there a standard? Ought there be an expectation? What's the process by which you decide which leaders that some deem as rogue to meet with, to have conversations with?

Obama: Well, look, I think my general rule would be that not setting preconditions for meeting is not the same thing as not demanding preparation. You always have to have preparation, right? So if you're looking at Iran right now, there are a host of issues that we're going to need to discuss. Their pursuit of nuclear weapons, their support of terrorism, but also needing to stabilize Iraq, which they actually have an interest in over the long term.

They can't afford Iraq to collapse, and that's why I had a difference with Senator Clinton about this resolution that said our force structure in Iraq should be based in part on blocking Iran's influence. We're going to need all the players in the region to think about how do we stabilize Iraq.

So I want our initial low-level diplomats to start making contact, sending signals that there are both consequences if they are acting adversely to our interests, but that there are also carrots out there in terms of them joining the world economic community, that they can start trading in ways that they can't, if there are areas of mutual interest.

Eventually, over time, as a consequence to that preparation, then you are in a position to start having a conversation. What you don't do is say, "We won't meet with you until you agree to everything that's going to be the subject of negotiations," in which case their attitude is, "Well, why should we meet in the first place?"

Tavis: I've watched you on a number of shows of late get asked this question. I'm insulted by it when I see you get asked about whether or not you'd accept a number two slot on the ticket. Would you consider - I think it's insulting to even ask you that at this point in the race, given what you've done so far to prove that you could be the nominee.

That said, so I'm going to ask you that question. Do you think, though - the other question I get asked all the time is whether or not America is ready for a woman / African American on the ticket, or to your point, an African American / woman on the ticket? Is America ready for that at the same time?

Obama: I think that what America wants desperately is change, and they want not incremental change, they want big change. Now they've got to have confidence. They won't vote for me just because it makes them feel good - well, let's have a Black person - any more than they'll vote for Hillary just to say, "Isn't it great that we finally got a woman?"

They want to know that you can take care of the business of this country, and that's the primary criteria by which they're making decisions. I think at this point the main thing that every voter is doing is just sorting this out, and trying to figure out who's got the characteristics, who's got the judgment, who can bring the country together, who's going to fight for us against the special interests, and most of all - and this is something that I want to emphasize - who's going to be straight and tell the truth?

Tavis: I'm glad you're in the race, and I am honored you came to see me.

Obama: Appreciate it. Enjoyed it.

Tavis: Good to see you.

Obama: Thank you.

Tavis: Thank you, Sen. Barack Obama.