E-mail a friendGen. Colin Powell
airdate January 7, 2008
A retired Army general and former Secretary of State, Colin Powell not only served his country in a 35-year military career, but also in public service in five administrations. When he became President Reagan's assistant for National Security Affairs, he was the first African American to serve in that position, as he's been in every office held since, including chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In '05, Powell joined a venture capital firm. He also serves on the board of the Council on Foreign Relations.
Halle Berry, Jimmy Smits, Will Smith and others congratulate Tavis on his fifth season on PBS. (:31)
Former Secretary of State discusses Barack Obama's early campaign success. (4:32)
Gen. Colin Powell
Tavis: As we celebrate our fifth anniversary here on PBS, I am pleased and honored to welcome General Colin Powell back to this program. His outstanding career in public service over the years has made him one of the most respected and admired men in all of America. He is the founder and current head of the Colin Powell Center for Policy Studies which is based at his alma mater, the City College of New York. He joins us tonight, though, from Washington. Mr. Secretary, an honor to have you back, sir, and happy New Year to you.
Gen. Colin Powell: Thank you very much, Tavis, and happy New Year to you, and congratulations on your fifth anniversary.
Tavis: We are delighted to have you say that, and more pleased to have you on the program as our first guest for this fifth anniversary year. The last time you were on the program, some time ago, you came on rather courageously to talk about your battle with prostate cancer. I assume that no news is good news, but since that's the last conversation we had on the program, how you feeling, how you doing?
Powell: I'm fully recovered, and prostate cancer can be dealt with and defeated, but early detection is important, especially among the African American community. Black men have a higher propensity for that disease than others, so getting regular exams and taking those PSA tests are important, and that's what I did for years. And then finally they detected the cancer and they were able to treat it.
Tavis: I'm glad that you're doing well and certainly wanted to start with that to make sure that your health was good. Is Ms. Alma tired of you being around the house now? She hasn't kicked you out yet, I take it.
Powell: She hasn't kicked me out yet, but I've been home for the last couple of weeks enjoying the Christmas holiday, and she's been looking at me in an odd way, (laughter) so I'm going back on the road starting tomorrow.
Tavis: All right. Speaking of being on the road, Barack Obama is on the road. Of course tomorrow night we will see what happens in New Hampshire. Right now he's up by double digits, according to some polls. Of course, we all know what happened last Thursday in Iowa. And I want to come back to Barack in just a second.
Before I go to him, though, the one thing that I keep thinking about where you are concerned in advance of our conversation is that you could have been Barack Obama, in the sense that all the hype and all the history that he is now making, had you decided almost eight years ago to get in that race, I was just saying to some students yesterday that the hype around Obama right now is comparable to the hype that was around you.
I recall you being on that book tour and all the questions everywhere you went, are you going to run, are you going to run? I recall the press conference in Virginia when you said, "I'm not going to run." But what do you make of this as a Black man looking at this Black man who is now making history?
Powell: I am terribly excited, I'm impressed, and I'm happy for Barack Obama. I know him, I've met with him a couple of times, and I think this is such an important event for America, for the American people. We can show to the rest of the world that it's possible to have a Kenyan father, to be a Black man, to have gone to school in Indonesia, come back, gotten your education in this great country, and now you can put yourself forward for national office.
In my case, I had a lot of firsts in my life - Black chairman, secretary of state, national security advisor - but politics wasn't in my blood. It's in Barack's blood, and it's going to be fascinating to see how he fares in New Hampshire tomorrow and how the campaign unfolds. But we all have to remember this is the beginning of a process.
It's going to go on for weeks, if not months, before we see what the American people really decide with respect to the next president. But let's enjoy this moment where a person like Barack Obama can knock down all of these old barriers that people thought existed with respect to the opportunities that are available for African Americans, and my congratulations to him.
Tavis: Although you said politics was not in your blood, do you regret at all the decision you made when you look at him now breaking through in a way that you could have done eight years ago?
Powell: No, not at all. I made a decision based on my feelings and the feelings of my family. It was a correct decision then, and since I continue to believe it was a correct decision, there are no regrets. I take joy in what he is able to achieve, and it doesn't in any way bother me that oh, gee, I could have done it. I've done a lot of things in my life that I am proud of and I've been privileged to set the standard in a number of endeavors, and wish Barack all the best and I rejoice in what he's been able to achieve.
But it's really the beginning of a long political process with a lot of good people on both sides - on the Democratic side and on the Republican side - who are putting themselves before the country for the country to make its judgment.
Tavis: To your earlier point - and we all know this - since you have accomplished so many African American firsts in your life, to your point - national security adviser, secretary of state, chairman of the joint chiefs, although not in that order - what advice would you have for a Barack Obama, your junior, who is doing something for the first time in the way that he's doing it, about how to navigate the journey, how to deal with the pressures, are you Black enough, are you too Black? What advice do you have for Obama?
Powell: Well, I think he is doing a terrific job of navigating these shoals. This argument about him not being Black enough, that's just absolute nonsense, and I'm glad that he doesn't respond to that kind of challenge. What he has put himself forward as is as a person who has a belief in the country, who is competent, and he is putting himself forward not as a Black man but as an American man who wants to be president of the United States of America and he's going to take his case to the American people, just as all the other candidates are. So we should see Barack as a candidate for president who happens to be Black, and not a Black candidate for president.
Tavis: Fair enough. Let me hit some hot spots around the world; indeed, there are so many and you have been connected to so many of these stories. Let me go first to Pakistan. Of course Benazir Bhutto, assassinated, as we all know, during the holiday season. I saw the statement that you put out after her tragic assassination.
You may or may not have seen last night Mr. Musharraf on "60 Minutes" last night, who basically said it was her fault for riding in that area, a very dangerous part of the city, in an open car, standing in the window of the vehicle. He basically said it was her fault that she got assassinated. Your thoughts about the assassination and about what it means for us in that part of the world.
Powell: Well, I knew Mrs. Bhutto reasonably well. I had dinner with her just a few months ago here in the United States, and her loss is a tragic one for the people of Pakistan. She occupied a special place in the hearts of the people of Pakistan.
With respect to who is responsible for her loss, I don't really know. It was a dangerous act to stand up in front of that kind of a crowd and to come up out of a sun roof, but I could also argue that better security should have been provided all around her so that you wouldn't have had that kind of close access to her, whether she was in the truck or whether she was coming up through the sun roof.
And I will let others make judgments about the security that was provided. My looking at it on television said to me this is a very dangerous situation where people were able to mob that van and get so close to her, whether she was in it or out of it.
Tavis: For the United States, in our so-called war on terror, your assessment of what our policy ought to be and how that impacts us in that region of the world.
Powell: Right now, I think that Pakistan is going through a very difficult time. It's a fragile political situation. Her party has now made her husband and her son co-chairs of the party, and we will see who they offer up for the elections that are going to be held on February 18th.
Those elections are very, very important and they will give the Pakistani people an opportunity to speak out clearly on how they wish to be governed, and I hope the elections are held in a free, fair, open way with everybody able to participate and no restrictions on media coverage or something of that kind. That's very, very important.
Tavis: I want to move forward in a few minutes to talk about your work at the Powell Center. A few other things first, though. Let me stay in that region of the world and go straight to Iraq. I do not want to get back into what did and did not happen on your watch in the Bush administration - that's an old story to me on some level, you have been - I don't know if you used the word "mea culpa."
You might not use that word, but you have certainly, since that time, been forthcoming about what you did right, what you did wrong, and you've had a chance to reassess that again. I won't drill back down into that, but I will ask you now, on this date in 2008, what you think about where we are in Iraq now, and what the exit strategy, the way forward, ought to be from your perspective.
Powell: Well, I think we should give congratulations to our troops who went over there as part of the surge under the very, very distinguished leadership of General Petraeus, who I've known for many years. And the surge, the military surge, has had some effect. The violence is down, casualties are down, some stability in some parts of the country, but this war is not over. Bombs are still going off, people are still being killed.
What hasn't happened and what must happen - and General Petraeus, I think, would be the first to say this - is that the achievement of the military surge has to be accompanied by a surge on the political side that will bring the forces of reconciliation to bear, create conditions between the Sunnis and Shi'as so they don't fight this out in the street.
And so that part has been lacking. And the whole purpose of the military surge under General Petraeus was to create conditions for that political surge. I think General Petraeus and those troops have succeeded in doing that, but the political surge has not taken place, and that's where the pressure has to be applied. Because over time, the American people are saying, "Look, we can't keep this size force deployed forever;" nor should we.
It is up to the Iraqis now to get on with the business of political reconciliation, getting their economy going, and finding ways to resolve their differences peacefully and through political processes and not by militias fighting each other in the street. I think there's a limit to the patience of the American people with respect to how large a force can be left over there for how long a period of time.
Tavis: Now that you're in retirement, and I put that in quotes, Mr. Powell, I don't know how much you're watching this or how closely you're following it, but your name has come up any number of times in terms of Democrats raising it, Republicans raising it, everybody wants to reach out to you for your advice, for your counsel, put you on a bipartisan commission if he or she gets elected, so your name keeps coming up.
So let me ask you right quick, if you were advising any president, Republican or Democrat, in the White House beyond President Bush, what's your sense of how long the president has to play on the patience of the American public before we get out of Iraq?
Powell: I think that in the course of 2008 the administration will be making significant reductions because the surge cannot be sustained. It's a tremendous burden on our troops. I was up at Walter Reed Hospital on Friday visiting wounded soldiers, and some of the youngsters have been over two and three times.
Some of them have been wounded on each tour that they went over there on. So I think that the numbers have to come down in the course of this year. I will leave it to others, the military commanders and the joint chiefs of staff, to determine the rate at which those numbers come down, and I wouldn't want to speculate on that; I'm no longer in that business.
But I think those numbers will come down, and I think the next president in January of 2009 will have to take a hard look and see whether or not in the course of 2008 the Iraqi political leadership has essentially come up with their surge and made progress, because if we don't see that progress I think the next president will be faced with a choice of perhaps reducing the size of our presence there at a faster rate than anybody might think.
Tavis: One last hot spot and then to the Powell Center. Kenya, of course, all in the news today, and you spent a significant amount of time in Africa. During your tenure, you were the first member of the Bush administration to use the word genocide with regard to what's happening in Darfur. What's your sense of what's happening in Kenya and whether or not there is a role for us to play in that regard?
Powell: I'm deeply concerned about what's happened in Kenya. It was something of a bright spot. It had its difficulties, but it was something of a bright spot in terms of dealing with those difficulties and building its economy. And this election which took place seems to have been flawed or at least the opposition isn't accepting the outcome, and it's resulted in riots, it's resulted in the total drop-off of tourism, which was a major factor in Kenya's economic growth and development.
And now we see cleansing taking place as tribes go after one another. So that's very, very unfortunate and I hope that President Kibaki and Mr. Odinga will find a way within the next few days to put in place a process under the leadership John Kufuor of Ghana, the president of the African Union, in order to bring some quiet and stability to this and find a way through this political challenge that they are facing.
And of course America has been involved. Assistant Secretary Jendayi Frazer has been over there for the last several days, and other countries are trying to play a useful role, such as the United Kingdom. But what we need now is some accommodation between Mr. Odinga and President Kibaki to find a political way through this thicket in order to get the violence to end, bring stability and quiet back to the country, and try to get the country back on the right track.
Tavis: Since you mentioned diplomats taking trips, right quick, we know President Bush, headed to the Middle East in a couple of days. Some think it's too little, too late from this president now to head to the Middle East. Your thoughts?
Powell: Well, it's never too late to try to engage, and in the course of this administration the president has engaged, and I engaged with him. I made multiple trips to the region; Dr. Rice has made multiple trips to the region. We had the 2002 plan, the president went there to Akiba (phonetic) and Sharm El-Sheikh a few years ago to get things started. And it's difficult to get progress, but he has said that he's going to try and encourage both sides, the Palestinians and the Israelis, to make the difficult choices they have to make in order to achieve a goal of a Palestinian state.
Tavis: Tell me about your work at the Powell Center.
Powell: Well, the Powell Center at the City College of New York, my alma mater, is a center where we are focusing on students. Students that will go out and participate in service learning programs, students that will participate in conferences. It's a place where we take in the immigrant population of New York City, the minority population of New York City, and give them a quality education.
I graduated from there 50 years ago this year, and I was just a kid, son of immigrants, raised in the South Bronx, and I went to that school. I was surprised they even let me in, but they let me in and they stuck with me four and a half years until I finally graduated and went into the Army.
And when I went back to CCNY a few years ago and started to get more engaged with the Powell Center that is now 10 years old, I met some of the students, fellows at the Powell Center, and was so impressed. Ninety percent minority population, the student body is, and 50 percent of the students at City College of New York are immigrants.
Not their parents - they are immigrants. And this great melting pot institution which has been there 160 years are preparing these youngsters for positions of leadership in American society or in their home societies, if they go home. And so I'm raising money for the Powell Center, we're holding conferences, we're holding seminars, we are giving these youngsters experiences such as they never would have gotten in any other way.
Students from my center go down and meet with Henry Kissinger, who is on my advisory board. I'm taking some of them to a hockey game in two weeks' time under the sponsorship of Charles Wong, who is the head of the New York Islanders. We're giving them experiences they might not otherwise get because they're part of the center.
We just had a very successful conference on urban affairs with students of the Powell Center and overseas leaders who came to the Eisenhower Fellowship Program, which I also chair. So this is an opportunity for me to return to my roots in New York City, to return to this immigrant minority population from which I came, and see what I can do to help prepare another generation of American leaders.
Tavis: From your perspective, how important is it in this multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic America, saying nothing of the world that we inhabit, to be sending diplomats of color, ambassadors of color, leaders of color, out into the world on behalf of the United States to make our case and to get back what to many people has been lost with regard to our integrity and credibility?
Powell: It's very important. When the world looks at America, they see a multicultural country. A place of great diversity, where we have made that diversity work. It has become a source of our strength. And in order to take that message to the rest of the world, they want to see that diversity reflected in our corporate and in our diplomatic life.
And therefore, it's important for us to have ambassadors of color, Foreign Service officers of color. It's why the military was so heavy into affirmative action and integration over the last 40 or 50 years, because we wanted our officers, our leaders to look like the soldiers. And our diversity is a great message to the rest of the world, and you can only convey that when you have people of color, people of different languages and different cultural backgrounds showing America's face to the rest of the world.
Tavis: Call him chairman, call him Mr. Secretary, call him -
Powell: Try general.
Tavis: Yeah, general. (Laughter) By any name, by any title, he is Colin Powell, and always an honor to have him on this program. Mr. Secretary, have a great year and glad to have you back, as always.
Powell: Thanks very much, Tavis, and congratulations on your fifth anniversary again.
Tavis: Thank you, sir.
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