E-mail a friendJoe Klein
airdate January 16, 2008
Journalist Joe Klein is best known as the "anonymous" author of the best-selling book, Primary Colors. A senior writer at Time, Klein's "In the Arena" column covers national and international affairs. He's a veteran of eight presidential campaigns and has been a CBS News consultant, Rolling Stone Washington bureau chief and political columnist for The New Yorker. His articles have appeared in numerous publications, and his books include The Natural, on the Clinton presidency, and Politics Lost.
Joe Klein
Tavis: Joe Klein is a senior writer at "Time" magazine who now blogs daily on the magazine's Swampland politics site. He's also a bestselling author whose recent book is called "Politics Lost: How American Democracy was Trivialized by People Who Think You're Stupid." He joins us tonight from New York. Joe, nice to have you on the program.
Joe Klein: Good to be on, Tavis.
Tavis: By the way, love that book title.
Klein: Well, I think that a lot of the lessons in that book are being borne out on this campaign.
Tavis: Lessons like? Lessons like?
Klein: Well, lessons like the importance of courage and authenticity in a candidate. The lessons like the bad effects that pollsters and consultants can have when they over-manage candidates.
Tavis: Okay, so I get the second lesson. Who is teaching us the first about courage and authenticity?
Klein: Well, I think that on the Democratic side you've seen a fair amount of courage by all three candidates in calling for - you know sacrifice is like a euphemism for higher taxes?
Tavis: Yeah.
Klein: Well they've stepped up on issues like healthcare and alternative energy programs. On the Republican side, John McCain has shown remarkable courage. He practically trashed his campaign by taking a position in favor of a comprehensive immigration bill with a path towards citizenship for those who are here illegally now, which is very unpopular in the Republican Party.
And so I think you've seen there's a fair amount on both sides this year.
Tavis: So nice segue to Michigan, because - and I'm not casting aspersion here; I'm just saying the same thing that everybody else is saying, which is that and Romney would not be the first on anybody's list associated with the word "authentic." This guy has changed his position so many times, there's no way, whether you like or loathe the guy, there is no way with the record that he now stands on that he could have ever been elected governor of Massachusetts. That's how much the guy has changed, and yet he went to his home state of Michigan, not Massachusetts, and won last night. What do you make of it?
Klein: Well, I think it was a gift from his father, who was a very well-loved governor of Michigan in the 1960's, George Romney. You look at this guy, what you said is absolutely true. You look at this guy Romney, and you look at what he said last night. He said this was a victory of optimism over Washington-style pessimism.
And the fact is that he is the most pessimistic candidate on either side because he absolutely refuses to tell the public anything he believes it doesn't want to hear. He doesn't think that the public is worthy of being told the truth. John McCain, on the other side, may be overly optimistic in that he thinks the public can handle bad news.
McCain told the absolute truth when he said some of these auto industry jobs aren't coming back to Michigan, and Romney was not telling the truth when he said that that they would come back.
Tavis: I guess I'm lost for a quick second here, because I guess it depends on one's definition of pessimistic. But if Romney believes that the American people don't want to be told a bunch of negative stuff, why is that pessimism? He might not be a truth-teller, he might not be courageous, but why is that pessimism?
Klein: Well, it's pessimism for a simple reason: because he doesn't have faith in the public's ability to hear the truth, make sacrifices, and act on the truth. If you have a cynical view of the world and you think, oh, people just want to hear I'm going to lower your taxes and kick out all those wetbacks, then that's pretty pessimistic when you think about your view of human nature.
But if you think that the public can handle the truth, which is that in order to get universal health insurance, which we need in this country, we're going to have to pay a little bit higher taxes, and that we can find a path to citizenship for the 12 million here illegally, then that's kind of optimistic about your view of humanity.
Tavis: So before I get asked about it, I'm going to let you explain what you meant by wetbacks.
Klein: Well I was just using that in the derogatory way that a lot of people out in the country are using it. I certainly don't think of them in that way; I think of them as undocumented workers. And my position on immigration is really pretty radical. I think anybody who is willing to crawl across a desert or get in a boat from Haiti and go across shark-infested waters to come here is going to turn out to be a pretty successful American citizen because they'll work hard.
Tavis: Just wanted to give you a chance to explain it so I don't have to explain it for you.
Klein: No, listen, Tavis, I'm on the record for years and years and years in favor of the most liberal immigration policy as possible because that's what this country is all about.
Tavis: This raises a fascinating point, though, Joe, which we can jump into right now. I believe, and I'm certain you believe, given the work that you do, that language is important, and where language is important where parsing is concerned, what's your sense on the Republican and the Democratic side, to take this conversation a little farther, about who's using language best. Whose message is now starting to resonate?
Klein: Well, I think that on the Democratic side, Barack Obama is brilliant when it comes to language. When you look at his acceptance speech after the Iowa caucuses, it was even in iambic pentameter. It was poetry. They said this day would never come. That's the way Shakespeare was written. But he has also been very clear and elegant in his phrasing.
Hillary Clinton is more of a meat-and-potatoes type of Democrat, although she's been pretty clear as well. John Edwards is using your classic gut bucket populism and isn't always telling the truth, I would add. On the Republican side, McCain is extremely plainspoken and Romney is robotic and the surprise has been Mike Huckabee, who is a hoot. He's lots of fun.
Tavis: What do you make of the fact that Edwards' gut bucket populism, to coin your phrase, is not working, as yet?
Klein: Well I think that historically in this country, that's been a losing message. He shows a lot of anger, and people just don't elect angry presidents. Also, coming from a guy who is a multimillionaire trial lawyer, who worked for a hedge fund, who gets $400 haircuts, a lot of people think he's just being opportunistic.
I will say, though, that he has shown a lot of courage, and in a lot of case this year he has dragged the other Democrats into bolder positions. He was the first one to come out with the universal health care plan this year and Hillary Clinton then followed that. That's been true on a couple issues.
Tavis: I want to go forward to South Carolina and Nevada in just a second. Before I do that, Joe, let me ask you whether or not Hillary or Barack, did anybody gain anything from this week where race seemed to dominate the conversation, at least on the Democratic side?
Klein: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It hurt both of them. I think both behaved badly in this case. I think that the parsing - you talked about parsing before - the parsing of Hillary Clinton's statement about Martin Luther King and Lyndon Johnson was a bit too precious and sensitive. She wasn't running down Martin Luther King, she was trying to praise Lyndon Johnson because she sees herself as that kind of Democrat; the kind of president who would get legislation passed.
And for Obama, he has been very successful and really uplifting in his unwillingness to play the race card - that's a loathsome expression - but to make this a campaign about race. This has been a campaign about bringing us all together. And when he hits Clinton on the possible racial nature of her statements, he's bringing himself down to that level.
I will say, though, there has been a steady stream of garbage coming from the Clinton administration - the Clinton campaign surrogates. People like Mr. Johnson and even Bob Kerrey, who talked about Obama going to a secular madrassa in Indonesia. I think that that kind of stuff has really been unfortunate and it hurts Clinton, I think, in the Democratic Party.
Tavis: I think you're right about that. You mentioned Bob Kerrey and Bob Johnson. Bill Clinton got his hands a little dirty this week. I wonder whether or not, even though he has a relationship with Black people, whether or not getting his hands dirty in the way he did this week in calling Barack a kid and suggesting that voting for him is a roll of the dice, and using that fairy tale language. I wonder whether or not you think it's beneath him, even though he loves his wife and wants her to win, obviously - is it beneath him and is he hurting his own star power?
Klein: Well yeah, I think he is. First of all, we have to be clear. When he was talking about a fairy tale, when you look at it very closely, he was talking about Obama's position on the Iraq war.
Tavis: Fair enough.
Klein: By the way, he was wrong about that, (laughs) but that's what he was talking about. He wasn't talking about the candidacy. And when he uses the term "roll of the dice," well, what was a vote for Bill Clinton in 1992 against the far more experienced George Bush? I think that there's a basic fact about changing parties in presidential elections in the television era.
It's happened six times since John Kennedy, and in five of those six times, the American people chose the less experienced candidate. That says something about how Americans change party at the presidential level, and it's a good omen for Barack Obama, I think.
Tavis: Just enough time to ask you very quickly about South Carolina on the Democratic side and the Republican side.
Klein: Well, I think it's going to be a real test on the Republican side of whether John McCain can maintain his candidacy. I think he now has to win South Carolina if he is going to be credible. It's high stakes for him. On the Democratic side, I think that it's going to be an Obama victory. If it isn't, he's going to be in some trouble.
Tavis: Fair enough. Joe Klein, of course, senior writer at "Time" magazine, now blogging regularly on their site, Swampland Politics blog. Joe, nice to have you on. We'll do it again, I'm sure, many times between now and Election Day later this year.
Klein: Okay, my pleasure.
Tavis: Glad to have you on.
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