E-mail a friendSen. Hillary Clinton
airdate February 1, 2008
Before tossing her hat into the ring for the presidential race, Sen. Hillary Clinton became the first U.S. First Lady elected to public office and the first woman elected statewide in New York. A Yale-trained attorney, she served on the Yale Law Review Board of Editors and, since, has balanced law and public service. She's authored several books and won a Grammy for the recording of her best seller, It Takes a Village. Clinton's Senate committee assignments include Armed Services and Environment and Public Works.
Presidential hopeful discusses vice presidential candidates, showing emotion, and the Super Bowl. (4:36)
New York Senator discusses her neck-and-neck race for the White House. Full Interview. (25:01)
Sen. Hillary Clinton
Tavis: I'm pleased to welcome Senator Hillary Clinton back to this program. The former First Lady and current U.S. Senator is, of course, seeking the Democratic nomination for president, as if you didn't know (laugh). On Tuesday here in California and, for that matter, more than twenty other states around the nation, voters head to the polls for the most delegate-rich primary day in U.S. history. Senator Clinton, nice to have you on the program.
Sen. Hillary Clinton: It's great to be with you again, Tavis. Thanks for having me.
Tavis: Good to see you. Let me start with the obvious question, the obligatory question. What did you make of last night?
Clinton: I thought it was great. It was a good substantive debate and I think people know that they have to make a decision between Senator Obama and myself, but that whoever emerges, the Democratic Party is going to be united because the differences between us pale in comparison to what we have between us and the Republicans. That's so obvious.
Tavis: Speaking of the differences, I want to give you a chance in this conversation to unpack a little bit more. I'll give you more than ninety seconds that Wolf gave you last night, although I know what it feels like to try to moderate one of those debates.
Last night on differences, clearly Obama wants to make an issue of your vote on Iraq. You explained that last night. I don't want to rehash that. You all have some differences on the details of your health care policy. But beyond that, not a whole lot of difference. Some distinction, but not a whole lot of difference, which leads me to ask then why you think that you are a better opponent to John McCain if he ends up being the nominee.
Clinton: Well, I think, for several reasons because the differences that we do have particularly on health care are very significant. You know, I am supporting universal health care. I think it's an absolutely core Democratic value and way overdue in our country. Senator Obama has taken a different approach and I think we will be stronger going into the general election against whomever the Republicans nominate if we are foursquare in favor of covering everybody, no exceptions, no excuses.
We have some differences on immigration, we have differences on economy, we have had a difference over how to deal with this mortgage crisis, but I think ultimately what voters have to decide is how to answer two big questions. Who do they think would be the best president on day one going forward and who, as Democrats, is our best candidate to put against the Republicans?
Obviously, I think that I bring a lot of experience and maybe some battle scars, but nevertheless, a lot of understanding about how to win a general election campaign and then how to begin the really incredibly difficult job of cleaning up after George Bush and trying to get us on a new path.
Tavis: If, though, McCain ends up being the nominee, it's a big if, things can change, but if he ends up being the nominee, Obama made this point last night that he thinks that he is better positioned to not be - how could I put this - John Kerryed about your vote on Iraq. For it before I was against it, against it before I was for it. How do you navigate those kinds of waters if, in fact, McCain's the nominee because he's always been clear where he stands on this war?
Clinton: Well, I think the way you do it is by making it very clear that both John McCain and I serve on the Senate Armed Services Committee, we have actually traveled together to Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan.
I think it's going to be very important that our nominee be able to stand on a stage with, say, for example, Senator McCain and make it clear to the American people that the Democrat is strong on national security, will protect and defend our homeland and can be Commander-in-Chief. I think I carry that with me into the general election.
With respect to Iraq, you know, I think I'm actually in a stronger position because I will be able to say, "I was willing to give the president authority to put inspectors back into Iraq to figure out what, if anything, Saddam Hussein had." This president abused that authority, but I do believe in coercive diplomacy. I think the United States has to both cooperate more and be smarter about how we pursue our interests.
And I believe that some of what has already gone on in the campaign, one of the differences I have with Senator Obama is, you know, his willingness to meet with dictators the first year with no preconditions, I think will be very hard to defend because realistically that's not the best way to make policy on behalf of our country.
So I feel very comfortable going against someone who, you know, is a genuine American hero, was a prisoner of war, has been deeply involved in national security issues, traveled widely around the world, as I have and as I have developed not only in the Senate, but in years previously, a great familiarity with all the problems we face. I think I will be in the best position to take that on.
Tavis: I think the one thing you're right about, and this is not how you put it - I'm not going to be like Wolf and put words in your mouth (laughter), but here's what I hear you saying and here's what I think a lot of Democratic voters saw in the Kodak Theater last night, that while there are, again, to your point, some differences on policy, one of the biggest rounds of applause last night, as you recall, was when somebody suggested that you two should run together. We'll come back to that in just a second. Put a pin in that for the moment.
But the question is whether or not you think, because those differences are, you know, minimal in the minds of most Democrats, that Tuesday and beyond, if necessary, is going to turn on personality more than policy, on the individual more than the issues. Do you see it that way and are you comfortable, if that's what happens on Tuesday?
Clinton: Well, I think it'll remain both. Now some voters will give greater weight to one than the other, but ultimately Democrats have to be thinking about how do we win in November. As I've shown during this campaign, we've had six contests. I've won four of them from New Hampshire, to Michigan, to Nevada, to Florida, and I've brought a lot of new people into the process on my behalf, as Barack has on his.
I think the intensity of the Democratic party's desire to win will be transferred to our nominee, but then the nominee is going to have to be prepared to face whatever the Republicans throw their way. I just think that I have been tested and, therefore, will be able to much better navigate what will be a very challenging election.
Tavis: There's some who think, Senator Clinton, that that transference is a foregone conclusion. That is to say, and this issue came up again last night, that if Bill Clinton doesn't change his ways, that is to say, if people who think that he has been over the line in his critique and criticism of Senator Obama, if he were to continue that, and the last couple of days, he hasn't, but if he were to continue on that path, that that might turn off African American voters.
You've heard the argument that you guys could end up doing more damage in the primary, so much damage in fact that people might be turned off when you get to the general. So that transference, a lot easier said than done?
Clinton: You know, I -
Tavis: - if you end up being the nominee, of course.
Clinton: Right. Well, no, I believe that, you know, voters know that my husband has been a champion for people. He's put people first. He's produced results for people. You know, in a heated campaign obviously on both sides, you're going to have things said and that goes with the territory. But this has, by all historical measures, been such a civilized campaign (laughter) which is great because that's my preference particularly among Democrats. So I think that people will see what the stakes are.
Now we both have passionate supporters, you know, starting with our spouses. Both of us do, but when the stakes are no longer the relatively minor differences between us compared to the huge differences between us and the Republicans, I have no doubt that voters from all parts of our country, from every kind of background, are going to say, "We've got to pull together. We must have a Democratic president."
Tavis: You all were both very civil last night. What do you make of the fact, though, that said, what do you make of the fact that he clearly - a hundred seventy thousand new donors in January, thirty-two million dollars in January. What do you make of the fact that he clearly has an appeal to the young voters and new voters?
Clinton: I think it's terrific. I think it is such a breath of fresh air. He has been, you know, just extraordinary in bringing people, you know, into politics. It's not only bringing them to the Democratic Party, but bringing them into the process for the first time.
I feel like I've done the same. You know, maybe not with the same categories of voters, but certainly, you know, as I look at the results in these four states that I've done well in, you know, a lot of people who need a president, you know, they need somebody they know will get up every day and go to bat for them.
Tavis: This might be a horrible over-simplification, but since you raised women, is it fair to say that when everything is said and done on Tuesday, if Hillary Clinton holds women, if she pulls women, and just pairs that with a little bit of anything, a little bit of Hispanics, a few African Americans, some labor vote. But if you primarily hold women, isn't this thing over on Tuesday?
Clinton: I don't know. You know, this is an exciting election and we've never done this before, so anybody who makes a prediction is doing it just totally by the seat of their pants because we've never had a national primary to the extent we do on Tuesday.
I feel very good about where I am in most of the states that are going to be voting on Tuesday, but the place we have to get is to the number of delegates to be nominated. You know, we'll have to see where things stand on Tuesday. And the rules of the Democratic party are, you know, pretty complicated about how many delegates you get depending upon the vote that you can achieve in a congressional district.
But what I think is really significant is that in every place, in all six of the places that have already voted, record numbers of people turned out. I mean, even in Florida where they were told their votes wouldn't count, 1.7 million Democrats voted. That's stunning.
Tavis: I don't expect you in answer to this question to give me the Clinton strategy inside the campaign headquarters, but tell me what you can or what you're comfortable telling me about what your strategy is on Tuesday. How do you see yourself winning this map on Tuesday?
Clinton: Well, it is complicated, Tavis, because when you look at the big states that are going, New York, New Jersey, California obviously, you know, I'm doing well according to all the information that we have. I do well in primary states and those are all primaries. We have a bunch of caucuses also on Tuesday. I think those largely favor Barack because they bring out the activists and the really dedicated Democratic participants. So I think it's going to be difficult to predict.
Now I feel good. I think I'm going to come out very strong from Tuesday. But what I learned in New Hampshire is that four days can be an eternity and you just get up every day and you do the best you can.
Tavis: John Edwards' name came up perhaps more last night with his being out of the race than it did when he was on the stage in some of these debates (laughter). That said, John Edwards, to my mind, raised at least three issues consistently, at least three. Certainly more than three, but the three that come to mind in no particular order, poverty he raised consistently, the labor issue he raised consistently, corporate welfare he raised consistently.
Those issues came up last night. If those issues truly mattered to you and Barack Obama, they mattered to both of you the way they mattered to these Edwards' supporters - he has yet not - unless I missed something, he has not yet announced - you know something I don't know?
Clinton: No.
Tavis: Okay. So he has not yet announced who he's going to support, but to those supporters, those three issues the centerpiece of what he believed, if those issues mattered to you guys before last night, why was he raising them more consistently than you or Obama?
Clinton: Well, I think that, speaking for myself, I raised all of those issues. Maybe the emphasis was somewhat different, but, you know, I've worked on poverty for thirty-five years. I went to work for the Children's Defense Fund right out of law school. I chaired the Legal Services Corporation.
I ran a prison project where law students represented the incarcerated. You know, I've worked on health care particularly in under-served areas like rural Arkansas and education to be improved in order to give people a chance to get themselves out of poverty and give, you know, more emphasis to the tools of opportunity.
So I've lived this and I care deeply about it and I respect John so much for making it a centerpiece of his campaign, to starting his institute that he did. And I intend to really take that banner and run with it, both because I honor what he did, but also because I think he's right. It needs to be a more central part of our campaign and of the next president's agenda.
With respect to labor, I'm proud to have support from unions representing six million American workers and that's because I think that it's not only important to support those who are working hard and give them the right to organize and bargain collectively, but I've been trying to make the case that, when you look at the middle class, it is shrinking. People are falling out of the middle class, falling back into poverty.
One of the ways we can stop that slide is to get more people the bargaining power that unions give them. So I'm trying to make the case not only that I am pro union and pro labor, but that I am pro middle class and the two go together. We've lost that message.
You know, part of the reason we built such a strong and prosperous middle class in the 1940s, in the 1950s, in the 1960s is because we had such a high percentage of our workforce in labor unions. I think that would be good for everybody to move in that direction again.
And I've been taking on, you know, corporate welfare and special interests for a long time. You know, when I took on universal health care the first time, it was kind of a lonely battle against the health insurance industry and the drug companies, but it was one that I was passionately committed to. I'm going to do everything I can to rein in the influence of special interests.
Tavis: John Edwards, of course, a former U.S. Senator. You were in the Senate, Barack Obama in the Senate. Been a long time since we had a president go from the Senate to the White House, as you well know. But I've been fascinated and been in a number of conversations of late about the way these endorsements are shaking out. I always believe that on Election Day, they don't count endorsements. They count votes. But endorsements seem to matter to people for whatever reason.
This has been a big week for endorsements, as you well know. You got Maxine Waters, he got Ted Kennedy. We could do this all day about who got who this week. What's fascinating for me and I've been talking to people about this, gauging their sense of it, is that so many of the - I had Ted Kennedy on this program earlier this week, in fact, and I asked him this very question I want to ask you.
So many of these white male Democratic senators are lining up behind Barack Obama, those who are in the Senate now like Kennedy and Kerry, those who are former senators like Daschle and Bradley, while male Democrats are lining up behind Obama. I've heard all kinds of theories about why that is.
I've heard theories that range from Bill and Hillary angered people and this is their chance to get back at them. I've heard the theory that some of these people are losers. Bradley lost, Daschle lost, Kennedy and Kerry couldn't make it to the White House, so they're not going to let you get there. I've heard the issue of sexism.
I've heard all kinds of issues about why that dynamic is shaking out, but I want to hear it from you. What do you make of that? I've heard the theory that they've worked with you and they must know something about you that we don't know if they're endorsing the other guy. Again, I've heard sexism a thousand times. What do you make of that?
Clinton: Well, you know, I don't know what to make of it because I have actually a lot of white males supporting me too, you know. Sheldon Whitehouse from Rhode Island, Evan Bayh from Indiana and Mark Pryor from Arkansas and Bill Nelson from Florida. I think it really comes down to such an individual choice.
You know, I respect anybody's right to make whatever endorsement decision they choose, but at the end of the day, you're absolutely correct. It is not about our spouses, it is not about our endorsers or our supporters.
The two names on the ballot will be mine and Barack's and people have to make a decision that is a really serious one this election about who they think can be the best president and who the Democrats can put forward as the best candidate.
So I really believe that, as proud as I am to have all of my endorsements from so many people across the country, I feel like I'm out there on my own, that I want to be judged on my own, that I want to be held accountable.
You know, one of the reasons, Tavis, that I run a campaign where I'm very specific about what I want to do to get to universal health care and fix the economy and, you know, replace No Child Left Behind with something that works better for students and teachers, I get very specific because I'm trying to set up accountability.
You know, when George Bush was elected, he said a lot of things in a kind of vague, general way that sounded really good and people took a chance on him. Unfortunately, he reversed course almost immediately. I want people to know very clearly where I stand because I think we have to rebuild trust, confidence, competence and accountability in our government.
So I am very happy to put myself out there and tell you, "Here's what I'll do, here's what I'll do on day one, here's what I'll do my first hundred days" because I want to be a president who's hands-on, who's running the government, who's producing results and solving problems.
Tavis: It came up last night and I think Barack and you in your own way dismissed it the right way, which is to say that it's premature and it's presumptive - you know where I'm going now - to talk about Clinton-Obama, Obama-Clinton. But what did strike me last night as I watched, it was a beautiful thing to see.
I mean, as an African American male - now I'm editorializing, but as a Black man, it must say it felt awfully good to look on that stage last night and see a woman and an African American. I think a lot of Americans, regardless of party, had to feel good.
Clinton: It really touched me too, just sitting there.
Tavis: Did it really?
Clinton: Oh, absolutely.
Tavis: You felt that last night?
Clinton: I felt it so strongly last night because, you know, as I said last night, who would have ever imagined, I mean, I'm talking ten years ago, not fifty years ago, that the two of us would be on that stage together, Tavis. It's such a tribute to the Democratic Party, but more to our country.
Tavis: I agree on that. In the Black church, we say, "Amen".
Clinton: "Amen, amen."
Tavis: Where I was going with that, though, was whether or not - we don't know yet. We'll find out in a couple of days, a few months. We don't know yet whether the country is ready for either of you, an African American or a woman, much less both of you together. There are then some who believe that, whether you are the nominee or Barack is the nominee, no matter how good it might look or sound to people, you have to put a white male on the ticket.
Clinton: Well, you know, that's the kind of consideration that I just can't even deal with right now because I'm so focused on the next four days. But what is most important to me is that, whoever our nominee is, pick somebody who really demonstrates to the country that the Democratic party stands for, you know, producing results and solving problems and that the country can trust us with everything, everything from the hardest national security problem to the most complicated domestic problem.
I think last night on the stage seeing the two of us was just so exciting for so many people. I can't tell you how many calls and emails I've gotten, you know, from people who I didn't even know cared about politics that much. But they are just thrilled at that. So there's something special about it.
You know, I'm sure that when one of us becomes the nominee, we'll start thinking about all the serious things about how you put the electoral map together, because whoever is the nominee owes it to the Democrats and owes it to the country to pick somebody who can be president if something happens, you know, and to win. Those are the two things we've got to be able to do.
Tavis: Fair enough to say, though, that, if you are the nominee and there is a white man on the ticket, it won't be Bill Clinton.
Clinton: (Laughter).
Tavis: I'm just asking. Is that a fair assumption?
Clinton: Oh, yeah, that's absolutely true. For a million reasons, that's absolutely true (laughter).
Tavis: Just thought I'd ask while you were here (laughter). Much has been made and we saw a different side of you in New Hampshire. You and I have discussed this privately. Much has been made of Hillary opening up and letting us see the inside. Let me ask you a question that may get a little bit inside of you.
I know because you're human that there's got to be a particular thing, a particular something that the media keeps harping on that you find most annoying of all the things they harp on. What is that one thing and you say, "I wish they would stop saying that. I wish they'd stop raising that issue."?
Clinton: You just don't have a show long enough (laughter).
Tavis: (Laughter) All right, just give me one, just give me one.
Clinton: Well, you know, one would be - and I think this is certainly about me and it's about me being a woman. It's this whole thing about feelings. You know, we want her to show her feelings. We want her to show her emotion. You know, it was sort of strange because I feel like I'm, you know, talking with people all the time and feeling very touched when somebody grabs my hand and says, you know, "Please help me with health care" or whatever their deep concern might be. But out of New Hampshire, the story was, "Oh, my gosh. She's a human being. I can't believe it."
I'm sitting there looking at it and my friends are looking at me, thinking this is bizarre. But I think part of it is, as a woman running for office, as a woman in the public eye, all of us really feel a special responsibility and frankly a burden to be able to, you know, chart this still somewhat untrod path the right way.
Here I am running for president, running to be commander-in-chief, well, of course, I have feelings. I have feelings about every time I sign a letter to the family of somebody who was killed in Iraq, every time I fight with an insurance company to get health care for some family that thought they were covered. They had insurance, they paid the premiums and the insurance company said flatly no.
I mean, sometimes I'm, you know, angry, sometimes I'm outraged, sometimes I'm frustrated, sometimes I'm just even determined more to try to do what I need to do, but every time it's a rush of emotion. Yet I'm well aware of the fact that I'm held to a different standard, as most women still are. So how you navigate through this with the press is really complicated.
I remember being in Finland years ago as First Lady visiting the country. At that time, women were holding so many of the important positions and we had a big meeting in Helsinki at the Ambassador's residence. Here we were in a country where women have enormously achieved equal rights that we hardly can even imagine. What did we talk about?
How frustrated they were that every time they made a serious about monetary policy or defense policy, it was reported what they were wearing or what their husbands thought or what their children thought. So we're moving into a future that nobody's ever lived before, so I don't fault the press because they're doing the best they can to make sense out of all of this. But how many stories do they need to write about the same thing?
Let's just absolutely accept the fact that we've never done it before. I'm trying to, with my own style and my own approach, convey who I am authentically, give people a chance to know what moves me, what I've done for my entire life and it doesn't look like the male models, many of which are very different, and let's give women the same opportunity to be who we are and not try to fit us into one particular mold.
Tavis: All right, I'll take that. So I've saved the absolute most important question to last.
Clinton: Oh, dear (laughter).
Tavis: Saved it for last, a big question. You've been so busy running for president, you probably don't even know this. There's a big game on Sunday.
Clinton: Oh, I know, I know (laughter).
Tavis: I'm just curious who you got?
Clinton: Well, I'll tell you what. We got the Super Bowl on Sunday and we got Super Tuesday, and I want the New York team to win both (laughter).
Tavis: (Laughter) All right, I'll take that, I'll take that. Nice to have you back on the program, and all the best on Tuesday. Good to see you.
Clinton: Great. Good to talk to you. Thanks a lot.
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