E-mail a friendSteve Schapiro
airdate February 19, 2008
A celebrated documentarian, Steve Schapiro's photos are in the National Portrait Gallery and the Smithsonian. He's chronicled American life for the world's most prominent magazines, with photographs of such pivotal cover stories as the Selma March and Bobby Kennedy's presidential campaign. He's also produced socially aware documentaries, including Survivors of Jim Crow. His new book, Schapiro's Heroes, includes behind-the-scenes photographs of people who shaped the political and cultural climate.
Steve Schapiro
Tavis: Steve Schapiro is an acclaimed photographer whose work has appeared in the pages of major newspapers and magazines around the world for years now. Along the way he has photographed so many iconic figures, including Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Muhammad Ali, Robert Kennedy, James Baldwin, and so many more.
A book featuring his work is now out and it's called "Schapiro's Heroes." Steve Schapiro, an honor to have you on the program.
Steve Schapiro: It's my pleasure, Tavis.
Tavis: Let me start by saying first of all what a delight it was to go through this book.
Schapiro: Well, thank you very much.
Tavis: Page by page, didn't miss a page, just enjoyed going through it. And I don't do a lot of these picture books on the TV show, although I love books and have stacks of them about my house. But there's something about yours that really got my attention. I want to just walk through some of these photos and just let you tell these stories. I want to start with the photo of Dr. King's hotel room.
Schapiro: I think it's at the end.
Tavis: Yeah, it's right here at the end. They've got it up on the screen here.
Schapiro: Oh, okay.
Tavis: But it's a fascinating - you tell me, first of all, how you got access. This is the room, I should say, that Dr. King was staying in at the Lorraine Motel. I should mention right quick we'll be doing this television show live for a week from Memphis from the Lorraine Motel, which is now part of the National Civil Rights Museum, we'll be there in April to commemorate and talk about the life and legacy of Dr. King, 2008, 40 years after his assassination.
So we'll be on location right outside of this hotel room, which again is now part of the National Civil Rights Museum. But keep that picture up, Jonathan. What you're looking at is the hotel room that Dr. King occupied in the Lorraine Motel. We've all seen the famous photo of him standing on the balcony; a few minutes later lying dead, essentially, on the balcony.
But this is the room. His briefcase and the way the room was left. How did you get access to this room, and tell me about that picture on the television.
Schapiro: When Dr. King was shot, "Life" magazine flew me to Memphis immediately. And the first thing I did was go into the rooming house, which was across the street, from which the shots were fired. And I saw a black handprint on the wall, a greasy handprint, which actually "Life" ran as a full page the following week.
And then I went to the motel and I was let in and everything there was as Dr. King had left it. There were dirty shirts; there were old coffee cups, his briefcase and all. And suddenly on the television this commentator came on and there was the image of Dr. King behind him. And it was a very emotional moment in the sense that his spirit had gone in the material sense; he had left behind many things. But at the same time, the television and from the television, his spirit soared out.
Tavis: It's a fascinating photo, again, when you take the picture of his room and live on television at that moment there is a story about his assassination. Jonathan, go back to that photo one more time. Everybody knows I'm such a King lover. I was fascinated to look at what is in his briefcase. I'm like, what's inside of Dr. King's briefcase?
Thank you, Jonathan.
What you see inside there, in the very back are some file folders - so King working on some stuff, obviously, with those file folders. He has two of his books in his briefcase: "Strength of Love" and the one you really can't see on the left there is "Where Do We Go from Here?" So there are two of his books in his briefcase. He's reading a newspaper called "Soul Force." It was a phrase that he used all the time.
He got that phrase soul force - satyagraha - from Mahatma Gandhi. So there's a paper that King's reading in the briefcase. And for every Black man watching right now, there's a can you see right at the front of the briefcase - for all the brothers, there's a can. And if you look closely, it says, "magic" on the can.
Dr. King had in his briefcase, y'all, a can of "Magic shave." Who knew Dr. King walking around with a can of "Magic Shave?" Now that's a Black thing. If you're not Black, you don't get that. But so many Black men for years have used this special shaving cream called "Magic Shave" because of the skin problem that so many Black men have - ingrown hairs - more than you care to know about. But it's so fascinating to see what's inside of Dr. King's briefcase, courtesy of Steve Schapiro.
Schapiro: Actually, I shot the cover of that "Strength of Love" book of his.
Tavis: You shot the cover of that book?
Schapiro: Yes, I did.
Tavis: Wow.
Schapiro: It was from the Selma march.
Tavis: It's a beautiful cover.
Schapiro: Oh, thank you.
Tavis: And a beautiful book.
Schapiro: If you wanted to go beyond the whole rooming house, it was turned into a museum. And what they did is they took out all the interior of the rooming house across the street and they took that whole bathroom from which the shots were fired and moved it out and put a Plexiglas there. But what they have done also is they removed that wall on which that black handprint was on.
Tavis: What do you make when you saw that handprint? Again, "Life" runs it as a full picture weeks later.
Schapiro: I think it's a very emotional handprint for me. It just indicates a whole attitude in the world, and an attitude which was not terrific. It symbolizes something, and it's a symbol for me, and the three pictures of that handprint, the bathroom, and Martin Luther King's room to me combine into a particular image of a horrific moment in time.
Tavis: So many iconic figures I mentioned earlier you've photographed over the years. Last December we commemorated the 20th anniversary of the passing of one of this country's great literary giants, Jimmy Baldwin - James Baldwin. And you spent some times with James Baldwin. Tell me about James Baldwin.
Schapiro: Jimmy was, I think, one of the most enthusiastic persons I've ever met. He was just excited about everything. And he was also extremely committed to the civil rights movement and a lot of the things happened behind scenes that people don't know about which Jimmy was responsible.
Jimmy really was important for a meeting with the Kennedys about the civil rights movement in which the Kennedys, I think, had thought that they had the Black vote in their pocket. And Jerome Smith, one of the original Freedom Riders, was at that meeting and in the middle of the meeting he said, "This meeting nauseates me."
And the reaction was that Bobby Kennedy went back feeling that the Kennedys had to do more. And from that moment on it seemed to me that they did do much more in terms of the civil rights movement.
Tavis: You've got some great shots that Jonathan's putting up now, some great shots of Bobby Kennedy. You spent a little time hanging out with him, huh?
Schapiro: Yes, I did. I did his campaign posters; I traveled to South America with him. I think he was the last real politician I've met who had all the qualities of intelligence, a sense of caring, and also the ability to play politics. And I haven't found anyone, really, who I respect to that extent yet.
Tavis: I've always been curious about this for persons of your ilk who had a chance to hang out with Dr. King, as you did, and Bobby Kennedy, as you did. How do you continue to navigate a life built up on real hope when you can't find anybody in real life that comes close to these guys years ago?
Schapiro: Well, you have to look. I think Kucinich has a lot of good qualities and I think he cuts through a lot of the government stuff we don't like right now. Probably people won't vote for him, but I think he personifies someone who is a straight shooter in terms of things. The world has changed very much. When I photographed, you really work with someone for about three weeks or three months and you were best friends.
You may never see them again in your life. Today there are so many handlers involved and so much public relations and so much in-between stuff that it's very hard to do that. And also the nature of magazines has changed. Magazine journalism used to be the way people saw the news and that switched to television.
And consequently, for young photographers today, it's very difficult to find an outlet for doing stories that they really care about.
Tavis: I'm sure there a lot of photographers watching right now envious of you, given you and your generation, given the access that so many of you, and you're right, so many handlers today, you can't get close to the subject you're shooting, even though you've been hired to do the job. You can't spend three or four days hanging out with them, or months, in your case, or weeks -
Schapiro: It's more difficult.
Tavis: Much more difficult. Muhammad Ali. If ever an iconic figure, he is certainly one. What do you make of Muhammad Ali these many years later?
Schapiro: Well, I saw him in 1963 when he was 21, and he loved Monopoly. And he played Monopoly with all the kids in the neighborhood, and he played Monopoly with me, but he wouldn't let you lose. Because if you lost, some of the money or property would go back to the bank. So he would loan you money so that he could win everything and everything would eventually be his. (Laughter)
Tavis: As it should be when you're the greatest of all time. (Laughter) Let me close our conversation with Barbra Streisand. We don't want to leave the women out of this. You spent some time with Ms. Streisand. I love the photo in this book of the chair on the set, the chair that Barbra Streisand sits in that somebody, I'm sure, lost a job for misspelling her name. But I love the X - you see the X on the photo there. Tell me about Barbra Streisand.
Schapiro: Barbra, I think, is someone who really through her own work and through her own ambitions, despite what anyone said, she found her way to make herself a star. And she has a strong sense of who she is and she follows that and she won't deviate from that. And it's really made her into a star in that sense.
She sung at the McGovern concert during the political days of McGovern, and there had been no rehearsal. And at the first rehearsal, she had not sung for six weeks and the voice that came out was magnificent. It's just an incredible talent she has, and she's mastered it and driven it on.
Tavis: What an incredible talent Steve Schapiro has, and he's mastered it as well. So much so that there is book now that features his masterful work. It's called "Schapiro's Heroes." It is a wonderful, wonderful book of some great photos - a lot of that old, good black and white stuff. But not just pictures, but words to go along with them, and we thank you for your work for all these years, and delighted to have you on the program.
Schapiro: Well, it's a pleasure. Thank you.
Tavis: A pleasure to have you here.
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