E-mail a friendLt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez
original airdate May 5, 2008
When he retired in '06, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez was the highest-ranking Hispanic in the U.S. Army. His 33 years in the military included service as a battalion commander during Operation Desert Storm and commander of coalition forces during the period of prisoner abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib. Sanchez grew up in a Texas border town and was the first member of his family to graduate from high school. His newly published memoir, Wiser in Battle, is the first book from an on-the-ground Iraq commander.
Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez
Tavis: Retired Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez served in the Army for 33 years before stepping down in 2006. At the time, he was the highest-ranking Hispanic in the U.S. Army and the commander of all coalition forces in Iraq. The new book about his career is called "Wiser in Battle: A Soldier's Story." He joins us tonight from New York. General Sanchez, nice to have you on the program, sir.
Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez: Thank you very much for the opportunity, Tavis.
Tavis: I'm glad to have you. The title, "Wiser in Battle," suggests what?
Sanchez: Well, this was an effort on my part to ensure that we have captured all of the lessons and the challenges that our nation faced during the conduct of this war during my time in Iraq, and it is very important for the future leaders of this great country, both political and military, to ensure that they understand the challenges that we faced, the solutions that we sought, and the difficulties that we had in order so that we don't go down this path again.
Tavis: Let me just take two things you said here now, General Sanchez, and get you to share more with me. When you say political lessons and military lessons that we need to learn, so much has been said already and this is a rather dense text. On the political front first and then we'll go to the military front, tell me what lessons you think we have not as yet learned politically about this drama in Iraq?
Sanchez: I think the key political lesson is that we have leadership - political leadership in Washington that is not focused on synchronizing all of the capability of this great nation to achieve the victory that we're so desperately seeking in this country in Iraq. And there are multiple reasons for this. There's a mix of leadership that leads to problems, the president is detached and does not impose his will.
The secretary of Defense is micro-managing, and we have military leaders that acquiesce to some of that micro-management. And it creates this condition that allows the country to stray from being able to impose its will in that country, and to be able to apply all of its power. And then we make political decisions, not necessarily bad decisions, but we have to recognize that political decisions will drive the conduct of the war, which is what occurs to us on a couple of different occasions in the country.
Tavis: Are you suggesting, then, that there was not, is not enough synchronization at the political level, or too much of an attempt to synchronize for the sake of victory, whatever that means?
Sanchez: Yeah, oh, no. The key problem is that there has never been a concerted effort on the part of the country, and specifically this responsibility should have rested with the National Security Council in trying to synchronize and apply the power that was necessary. It was woefully inadequate.
Tavis: On the military front, what do we still not yet get? What's the lesson here that we need to take to heart?
Sanchez: Well, the lesson that we have to embrace is that when we go into these types of operations, we must, in fact, rely upon our history. We must rely upon the military judgments that have been developed over years of effort in trying to solve these kinds of problems, and those judgments are discarded.
We also have to understand that at times, military judgments will not necessarily be considered, and the greatest challenges that a military commander will face will be in the politics of war, especially when a war has gone awry and future leaders must be prepared to deal with those challenges and to exercise moral courage when directions from our political leadership are not good for the execution of military operations.
Tavis: To your point about things going awry in Iraq, and I hear the point you're making - that's, I think, a major understatement, that things have gone awry in Iraq. But I again hear the point you're trying to make. On that point, though, let me ask you, General Sanchez, whether or not you are as bothered as I am, admittedly and quite frankly unapologetically, as bothered as I am and as others, I think, are as well by the fact that with all these books coming out post this drama, this mess in Iraq, that nobody did anything wrong.
That nobody accepts responsibility, that nobody accepts culpability. Everybody says if we had done this, if we had done that, but nobody, to my reading, at least, and I've interviewed just about all the persons who've written these books to date, nobody accepts any responsibility.
As a commander - the commander, at one point in time, in Iraq over all coalition forces - what do you make of that reality?
Sanchez: Well, I think this is one of the things that I was attempting to do with this book was to be able to lay out the truth and the facts of the decisions that are made and the challenges that we face, and in the book I believe that I clearly lay out some of the challenges that I faced and the mistakes that I made in underestimating our enemy, in not being able to implement interrogation and detention operations, improvements, in a timely fashion.
And these are clearly laid out for our future leaders. I think this is something that we ought to have the courage to accept because we will not be able to address these major problems in the conduct of war unless we realize that we've made those mistakes, and there is some danger in being able to tell the truth in all of its ugliness. But I believe that I was willing to accept that, and that's why I wrote this book.
Tavis: And the danger is what?
Sanchez: Well, there's a danger of being ostracized from my own organization, because the book does describe in some specificity the problems that my own Army has in being able to support the war and the decisions that we make. And then of course there is the potential adverse reaction from the politics - from the political side.
And so it is a classic situation where a commander or an individual or leader must make a decision, and this decision required significant moral courage because I believe that there were some significant possibilities that I will, in fact, be ostracized for this.
Tavis: I think it's fair to say that Abu Ghraib cost you your job after 33 years, it cost you a star after 33 years. If I'm wrong about that, correct me, and if I'm not wrong about it, when I say Abu Ghraib, you think what?
Sanchez: Well, no, clearly, when everybody says Abu Ghraib I think about the grotesque, shameful incident that occurs under my command. It is, in fact, turned into a strategic defeat for America. And I clearly understand the implications of the challenges that result from that for the administration, the implications on our military, and it is the driving force behind my being forced to retire.
But from a macro perspective, taking all of the political and military considerations, I don't see how the administration could have made a recommendation to promote me.
Tavis: That's courage, that's honesty. In your hometown now, the town you grew up in, there's a school named after you, so your hometown folk admire you and respect you and revere you for all that you've accomplished. But as the highest-ranking Hispanic in the armed forces at the time, what did you make of the way you had to step down?
Sanchez: Well, it was a very discouraging thing for me to have ended my career in that fashion, because whether we accept it or not, when you achieve that level of responsibility and you're blessed with those tremendous successes, there is a role model responsibility that you carry with you.
And I hope that by being able to stand up and tell the truth about what occurred under my command, both the good and the bad, that future leaders will be able to look at my experiences and first of all determine that I was a man of character and a leader of character who had the courage to do the right things, because everything that we were doing in that country was focused on doing the right thing for America and for taking care of my soldiers.
Tavis: Finally here, this is not the first time that we have made misjudgments, mistakes, where war is concerned. Vietnam obviously comes to mind. Are you at all hopeful, and if so, tell me quickly why you're hopeful that we will be wiser in battle this time, we will learn some lessons this time around?
Sanchez: Yeah, well, I think to an extent we're already on the road to learning some of those lessons. The key will be whether we can embrace them in total honesty as a country and not exercise the normal response of being very defensive and accusatory, and shooting the messenger.
And I believe that with time we will, in fact, embrace these lessons, because we are a great nation, because we do pride ourselves on the fact that we learn from our mistakes, and that is something that we instill into every military leader from the time they become a soldier. So I'm very hopeful.
Tavis: He is the former commander of coalition forces in Iraq, his name, Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez. His new book, "Wiser in Battle: A Soldier's Story." General Sanchez, nice to have you on the program, sir. Thanks for the book and all the best to you.
Sanchez: Tavis, thank you so much for the opportunity, and God bless you.
Tavis: Thank you very much.
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