TONIGHT
E-mail a friendPico Iyer
original airdate May 15, 2008
Utne Reader named Pico Iyer one of 100 "writers who could change your life." He's regarded as an incisive observer of the emerging global culture and writes up to a hundred articles a year for various publications. His books have been translated into several languages and published in Europe, Asia, South and North America. The British-born journalist was raised in California and now spends much of his time in Japan. In The Open Road, he reflects on the ideas and work of his friend, the Dalai Lama.
Pico Iyer
Tavis: Pico Iyer is an acclaimed writer and journalist whose books include "Video Night in Kathmandu." His latest explores the unique life of the Dalai Lama and is called "The Open Road: The Global Journey of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama." Pico Iyer, nice to have you on the program.
Pico Iyer: Nice to see you.
Tavis: Glad to have you here. I want to start with some pretty basic and fundamental questions about the Dalai Lama, because he's a figure that we see and that we know precious little about.
Iyer: Yes.
Tavis: Even for those of us who are not Catholics, we know so much more about the pope than we do about the Dalai Lama, obviously. Tell me - let me start by asking not about this particular Dalai Lama but about the Dalai Lama, since he is the 14th.
Iyer: The Dalai Lama is the spiritual and the political head of the Tibetan people, the Mongolian people - many, many around the world. And so he's the only monk on the whole planet who's also a political leader. The tradition of the Dalai Lama goes back about four or 500 years, and every time a Dalai Lama dies, a search party of monks scatters around Tibet, finds a little boy, subjects him to various tests, and the if he passes them decides that this is the reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama.
So in fact the current Dalai Lama came to power when he was four years old. He's been ruling his people for 67 years - longer than any other political leader on the planet.
Tavis: Wow. How does one navigate the journey of being, to your earlier point, not just a religious leader but a political leader?
Iyer: Yes, and I think the beauty of that, potentially, is that the Dalai Lama can bring into the world of politics, the cutthroat world of politics, the much more selfless and far-sighted vision of a monk. And at the same time, though, the drawback is that often, if you're both church and state in one, you're getting criticized from both sides.
So often when he makes a decision, some people will say he's too political and some people will say that he's too unworldly and too monastic. But that's something he's used to after 50 years of playing both these roles at the same time.
Tavis: How does this particular - historically, how does this particular Dalai Lama stand up against the others with regard to his politics? Is he more political, less political? Tell me about his politics in relation to the others.
Iyer: He's had to be much more of a political leader because Mao Tse-Tung sent his troops into Tibet when this Dalai Lama was only 14 years old, and he had prematurely to become official political leader of his people at the age of 15, and then he was sent into exile when he as 24, had to reconstruct his country and culture in exile, and really has had to spend 50 years traveling to Washington and to Brussels and to all the great political centers.
I think in an ideal world, he would have loved to be able to spend more time meditating and practicing his monastic side. But he's had to lead his people into exile, and in fact he's turned that into a great advantage and has said, "I lost my home, but now I've gained the whole world as my home," and Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism are now part of this country and Europe and Australia and everywhere, the way they weren't when you and I were growing up.
Tavis: Tibetan Buddhism is different than other forms.
Iyer: It is, yes, it has its own rites and its own ceremonies and symbols and iconography, but deep down, it comes out of exactly the same principles that Buddha spoke of. About how, for example, suffering and unhappiness are very, very different. Suffering in the sense that we all die, we lose things, everything's impermanent - that's built into life. But we don't have to be unhappy. We can respond to change at positively, and see it as an inspiration.
Tavis: Let me go back to the beginning now. Tell me about this particular Dalai Lama whose face we see all the time, we know what he looks like, and he always has that ever-present smile.
Iyer: He does.
Tavis: And the glasses, we know what he looks like, we know what he wears, we know who he is. But take me back to his being selected at four years of age. Tell me about him and how this happened for him.
Iyer: A group of monks in the Tibetan capital of Lhasa, following certain signs, dreams, omens, going to a mystical lake and seeing a building shimmering in the lake, followed those traces to a remote part of eastern Tibet and found a handful of little boys who were born at roughly the right time to be candidates. And one thing they did was to bring with them 10 objects that belonged to the previous Dalai Lama, and let's say 10 objects that didn't.
And they would lay the objects down on the table and ask these little boys what they made of them. And the current Dalai Lama chose all the 10 that belonged to the previous Dalai Lama, none of the 10 that hadn't, and actually started addressing these monks in the dialect of Lhasa, which is like somebody from Kansas suddenly speaking Swedish to a group of visitors from Sweden.
And they subjected him to many other tests and they quickly found that unlike any 2-year-old boy - he was only two years old at that time - he knew everything about what his role was to be as leader of his people. And so they spent two years extricating him from his little home - was born in a cow shed in a village of 20 houses - and taking him on the long walk to Lhasa.
Tavis: For the followers of this particular or any Dalai Lama, but for the followers of this contemporary Dalai Lama, how do they justify or explain following a leader who is four, five, six, seven years of age? It's understandable now, in the contemporary sense, but how do his followers of that tradition, of that faith, explain following somebody who's four, five, or six? Because most of us don't get that.
Iyer: Well, he's regarded as a reincarnation of a great spirit, and when the child is put on the throne at the age of four, he then goes through a very exhaustive, 18-year course of studies in which he essentially gets a doctorate of philosophy. So in those early years, there's a group of adults who essentially rule the nation and are his regents, and take care of all the political affairs until he's grown up enough to be able to make all the decisions for himself.
But I think it's just like for many of us, when our father dies, sometimes a grandchild will appear in our household, and we'll feel there's such a strong connection, of course that grandchild is still a 2-year-old, but there's something of the departed person there visibly in front of us.
Tavis: Situate properly for me his leadership as the Dalai Lama, given that he has, to your earlier point, been in exile since 24, and this political issue continues to, one could argue, worsen by the day where Tibet is concerned.
Iyer: Yes, and his great precedents are people like Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, and he says, "We're living in a global neighborhood, and if a neighbor throws a stone through your window, you can retaliate. But if you retaliate, the two of you just get caught up in a cycle of violence and the whole world suffers."
So even though China has oppressed his people for more than 50 years, and even though China has forced him and so many other Tibetans into exile, he says, "I have to keep the hand of dialogue extended, we have to practice tolerance," and any kind of violent act against the Chinese is not only going to hit the Chinese, but it's going to hit us Tibetans and the rest of the world.
And so he's really kept to the moral high ground in a very inspiring way, and one thing he often points out is that there are many freedom struggles across the world, many oppressed or displaced people. And the Tibetans are among the rare ones who have really tried to refrain from violence and have kept on extending the hand of friendship to China, even though, as you said, China keeps batting them away. And in the long term, he knows that's the right policy.
Tavis: What does he have to say, then, publicly, about the recent violence?
Iyer: I think he says that we should all speak out but not lash out. That we should care passionately about the Tibetans, but not begin to demonize the Chinese people. In fact, in the Tibetan capital of Lhasa now, the majority of the residents are Chinese.
So even if Tibetans' freedoms of speech and thought are restored, nothing will really be resolved until the Chinese individuals are taken care of, too. So I think he's always cautioning prudence and the larger picture and the longer term.
Tavis: I think all of our hearts go out, clearly, to those persons who have been - who've lost their lives and those who've been damaged one way or the other by this recent earthquake in China, and yet, that said, what is to come is the Olympics, which has created all kinds of political quagmires for the government of China.
Is this a platform? Is this a stage for the Dalai Lama, since he is political, and for others to raise this issue of Tibet, juxtaposed against the Olympics?
Iyer: Yes, and I made sure that my book came out this spring because I knew that these are the five or six months when all the world is going to look to China, to think about China and Tibet, when China needs and will seek a little the approval of the world, and where world leaders like our own president have a small chance to try to prompt the Chinese government just to meet the Dalai Lama.
And what they say to Beijing is, "What's so scary about a monk? He's not a terrifying person. If you just allow him into the same room with yourselves, you'll find that something good may come of it. No harm can come of it." The Dalai Lama always stresses, though, that the really important thing we should be thinking about is what happens after the Olympics.
Right now, we're all concerned about China and Tibet, but picture ourselves in September of this year, we'll be thinking about our presidential election, the war in Iraq, the economy, and then China could really execute its policies very brutally against the Tibetans. So I think the secret and the challenge is to keep our attention focused on Tibet and many other parts of China and the world.
Tavis: China is resisting this meeting at the moment with the Dalai Lama.
Iyer: Yes.
Tavis: And that has been their policy for his entire life?
Iyer: Yes.
Tavis: So he's never had that meeting.
Iyer: In 1954, Mao Tse-Tung invited him to Beijing and he spent a whole year in China and spent many months with Mao Tse-Tung. But in recent years, they will meet with a few of his delegates but won't engage with him, which suggests that they're scared of him. And I think what they're scared of is he has a power that they can't touch, which is a moral, spiritual, and invisible power, and I think that's why they often sound very defensive.
Tavis: Before I let you go, tell me about your personal relationship, Pico, with the Dalai Lama, and how you got the access and the opportunity to write such an in-depth book about him and his life.
Iyer: I've been lucky that my father met him as soon as the Dalai Lama came into exile, his first year in exile, 58 years ago - well, 48 years ago, my father met him. And I first met the Dalai Lama when I was a teenager in 1974. So for 33 years I have been talking to him and traveling with him around the world, and whenever he comes to Japan, which is where I spend a lot of time, I'm next to him as close as I am to you every day of his visit.
And one thing that strikes me, it goes back to your earlier question, is we know the face and we know a little about his role, but I think many people don't realize the attentiveness and compassion that he does off screen, actually. And so being lucky enough to travel with him, I've noticed, for example, he was in Niro, Japan not so long ago, and he was walking to his next meeting, and like any head of state he has a very busy schedule - 2:00 here, 2:30 here, 2:40 there.
And as he was walking, surrounded by about 40 or 50 people, suddenly out of the corner he, and only he, noticed a little girl in a wheelchair. And instantly, without a second thought, he swiveled round, went and asked her what was wrong with her, and just sat, held her, talked to her, gave her a blessing, and then turned round and returned to his day's duties.
And the little girl looked as if the day had just begun for her. Her mother was sobbing, the woman by her mother's side was sobbing, and that was something that would never appear on any newspaper or TV screen. There were no other journalists around. But that's what he does almost every moment of his life. And I think of him almost as a doctor, and wherever he's traveling, he's got a radar for who is in need and what they're suffering from, and tries to help them as much as he can.
Tavis: He is a fascinating world figure, one who we see all the time but know precious little about, as I said at the top of this conversation. That, the case no more, thanks to the new book by Pico Iyer. "The Open Road: The Global Journey of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama." Pico, thanks for the work and nice to have you on the program.
Iyer: Thank you, delighted to be here.
Tavis: My pleasure.
Back to May 15, 2008