TONIGHT

• Home
• Video
• Podcasts/RSS 
• Archives
• Young Voices
• About the Show
• Tell Tavis

FEATURES

• Election 2008
• Road to Wealth
• Examining Hip-Hop

RELATED LINKS

• "David Iglesias, Karl Rove, and the Fired U.S. Attorneys"
• About In Justice
• Q&A with Mr. Iglesias
• "Former U.S. Attorney Reflects on DOJ Purge"

E-mail a friend

Former U.S. attorney describes the political pressure that he endured during the 2006 congressional midterm elections and the scandal that ensued. (2:54)
 

Full Interview. (12:16)
 

Tavis: In late 2006, David Iglesias was one of seven highly regarded U.S. attorneys suddenly fired by the Justice Department. From day one, David and many others have maintained that the firings were politically motivated, and now a grand jury will begin looking into elements of the case. The new book about his ordeal is called "In Justice: Inside the Scandal that Rocked the Bush Administration." David, nice to have you back on the program.

David Iglesias: Thank you, good to be back.

Tavis: I must tell you honestly, full disclosure, I laughed when I saw the subtitle: "Inside the Scandal that Rocked the Bush Administration." I was like, "Which one is that?" (Laughter) With all due respect to the Bush people, there've been a whole lot of scandals that rocked this administration. But to be sure, this is one of them, and you were caught up in the middle of it.

That said, before I get into what I think the book is really about, two things - illegality and unconstitutionality. We'll come back to those two things that are really the twin towers around which this book is erected. Why write it, though? At this point for you, a couple years down the road, life has moved on for you, you've moved on from it, never mind the fact that a grand jury's going to be impaneled now to look into this, why, for David, write the book?

Iglesias: A couple of reasons, Tavis. Number one, it's a big deal. This has never happened. No president has ever illegally pushed out his own U.S. attorneys. And number two, this matter's still ongoing. With this inspector general's report that's going to keep dropping this summer, there's going to be more and more really bad examples of unconstitutional conduct, possible illegal conduct, that's going to be released.

Tavis: So let's take those two things now, since you've uttered them as well - illegality, unconstitutionality. Let's take them one at a time. Talk to me about the illegality of this case.

Iglesias: Well, for example, you have an interim U.S. attorney named Brad Schlossman who allegedly perjured himself in front of Congress. His matter is being referred to a grand jury in Washington, D.C. He could end up getting indicted and prosecuted, and it was about voter fraud, which was one of the orders that we all, you know, felt pressure to indict voter fraud cases.

Number two, the unconstitutionality? We've got three co-equal branches of government here, but the administration acted as if it was the first among equals, and the House and the Senate, until '06, just stood by and let them do whatever they wanted. That changed, obviously, at the midterm election.

Tavis: You've been on this program before. I'm glad to have you back now with the publication of the book. But for those who don't know the particulars of your story, share more, since you referenced it a moment ago, about the pressure that was specifically placed on you by a certain U.S. Senator.

Iglesias: Right. I got a call from my mentor, Senator Pete Domenici, who called me in October, after a congresswoman had called me wanting me to tell her the contents of a sealed indictment. Well, prosecutors can't talk about sealed indictments; I didn't give her anything.

Domenici then called and wanted to know if I was going to file corruption cases before November against a prominent local Democrat. I didn't give him what he wanted; he hung up on me -

Tavis: Before November, being election time.

Iglesias: Right, which could have been used by the congresswoman to help her in her very narrowly fought race she was running right then. I didn't give him what he wanted; he hung up on me. I was the last U.S. attorney to be placed on a list, and the rest is history.

Politicians have no business influencing the timing of indictments or investigations. That's a matter of the executive branch, hence my comment about unconstitutionality.

Tavis: How did you find out that you were on the list, and tell me about the day that you learned that you were being let go.

Iglesias: It was Pearl Harbor Day, it was December 7th. I was coming home from some Navy duty, I'm a reservist, and I got a call from a friend of mine, Mike Battle, who said it was time to move on, please submit your resignation. And I asked him what was going on, he said, "Look, I don't know, I don't want to know. All I know is it came from on high."

So I later found out there were others - there were seven others that had got the same phone call on that same day, all for very, very suspect reasons.

Tavis: And your suspect reason was what?

Iglesias: Not filing voter fraud cases when I didn't have proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that's number one, and number two, not rushing an indictment against the local prominent Democrat. And all my other colleagues had similar stories. They'd either indicted or convicted Republican members of Congress, or they were investigating prominent members of Congress, or they refused to indict voter fraud cases, for instance, up in Seattle, my good friend John McKay.

Tavis: Did you immediately, David, recognize that there were some politics being played here, or just as a human being, as a person, did you feel otherwise that you had let your bosses down, that you had not done your job well? In other words, did you internalize this about your own work product or the lack thereof, or did you, rather, immediately know that you were being forced out for political purposes?

Iglesias: I didn't know right away. I was completely thunderstruck; this came from out of the blue. Because I knew my office evaluations were good, my colleagues' evaluations were good. So when I got the call, I'm thinking "Okay, I'm not getting investigated, I know I'm doing a good job, I'm prosecuting more cases of the priorities that this administration wants. So what does that leave? That leaves politics."

But I couldn't believe it at first, because I thought you just do a good job and send the bad guys away and you'll get respected and honored for that, not thrown out of your job for not doing political prosecutions.

Tavis: What's the journey been like since that day for you? If you can explain for me in your own words the journey from then, from that day, Pearl Harbor Day, till now - that is to say, the publication of the book. Describe for me in your own words what that journey's been like.

Iglesias: Well, if you would have asked me right after my phone call, does a rule of law exist in America? I would have said, "I don't know." I teach it when I do my reserve duty overseas, I teach rule of law. But I didn't see any consequence. I figured the powers that be were just going to push me out, push my colleagues out with no consequence. Well, that's changed.

The woman who called me, my congresswoman? She got beat in the primary, due in part - I don't know what percentage, but in part to her illicit call to me. A guy who called me an idiot on Fox News, Representative Chris Cannon from Salt Lake City, he got beat in the primary. His calling me an idiot on TV was made part of the attack ad by his opponent.

Senator Pete Domenici is stepping down for health reasons. I'm sure there are other reasons. But so right there, there's a consequence. So this has restored my faith. This terrible experience has restored my faith in the rule of law and the fact that actions do have consequences, even to the powerful.

Tavis: To your point now, though, about the rule of law being restored - at least your faith in it being restored - let me challenge you on that and ask you to tell me why it is that you feel that way, never mind the examples you've just offered, when the persons who you and I know are responsible for this have not been checked, as it were. Pete Domenici called to find out some information, but he didn't pull the trigger on this.

Iglesias: That's true, and there's growing evidence showing that people like Rove, who used the U.S. attorneys as political -

Tavis: Karl Rove.

Iglesias: Karl Rove.

Tavis: No, no, you said Rove, I was, like - I think we know who the name - I think everybody in America knows who Rove is.

Iglesias: Well, it's like Cher or Bono, right? Rove. (Laughter) But anyway, so Karl Rove used us as political tools when no other member that high up in the White House had done that. He could end up getting indicted. If Congress is able to get all this information - the memoranda, the emails - and force it out of the White House, I think you're going to show a plan to politicize the Justice Department, which you can't do in this country. It's not something that's legal or constitutional.

Tavis: But isn't the White House, number one, stonewalling - has been for some time now - on documentation, evidence, etc., etc., that Congress has tried to get out of them, number one, and number two, when's the last time in history - what, Watergate - that some folk up inside the White House actually paid for their crimes?

Iglesias: It's interesting you say Watergate, because the House filed a lawsuit, a civil lawsuit, against Harriet Miers, Karl Rove, and Josh Bolton, the current chief of staff. Guess what they refer to in their very first sentence? Watergate. This is the biggest crisis in our justice system since Watergate.

This is a big deal, and that's why I wrote the book. This is not just about a bunch of lawyers getting fired from their cushy political jobs. This was trying to infect our apolitical, justice is blind system with partisan politics, and we can't have that in this country.

Tavis: What's your sense, though - what's your feeling about whether or not it will ever be dealt with that seriously at that level? Rove is making money at Fox News and doing everything else he wants to do now. Harriet Miers has left the White House; Bolton, chief of staff. What's your sense of whether or not they can make this stick?

Iglesias: I'm hopeful, especially with the evidence that's being developed regarding Governor Siegelman in Alabama, because it sure looks like there's a long hand of Rove there, also. He put that together with - and in fact there's another book which I'm not going to plug because it's not my book, but it argues that Rove was fired because of his involvement in the U.S. attorney scandal. That that was the straw that broke that camel's back. So we'll see. I'm a big believer that what goes around, comes around; eventually, justice will be served.

Tavis: What do you think of the president these days?

Iglesias: I feel sorry for him. He had some people - his A team has left. His A team left a long time ago. He's left with a C team now. I don't know how history will be to him. I suspect his approval rating will - disapproval rating won't be as bad, but there's a second term curse out there, for lack of a better word. There hasn't been a good second term since Eisenhower. (Laughter) Think about it - Clinton, Reagan.

Tavis: Sure, sure. I'm trying to read into that line, that statement that you feel sorry for him. Is that sorry in an empathetic, sympathetic, passionate sort of way, or sorry for him in the exact opposite?

Iglesias: No, I hold no malice toward him personally. I think he over-delegated lots of things, especially in this matter. I think he let Karl Rove do whatever he wanted, let Gonzalez do whatever he wanted, and there was a steep price to pay. They've lost lots of top people who have resigned as a result of this scandal.

Tavis: You say in the book, and I'm paraphrasing you, but in the book you argue that where Gonzalez is concerned, the former attorney general, Alberto Gonzalez, that you feel empathy and antipathy for the guy. Empathy in part because you're of the same heritage.

Iglesias: Sure.

Tavis: But antipathy because of the way - and I'll let you explain it, but.

Iglesias: Well no, I felt very conflicted, and I still do, because he represented a lot to the community at large - the first Hispanic attorney general, Harvard Law grad and all that. But you've got to do the right thing, and your oath is to the Constitution, it's not to the president, it's not to a party. And unfortunately, he never saw that. He just viewed loyalty as the number one, overriding principle, and it's got to be principle loyalty. It's got to be based on something, and that something is the Constitution.

Tavis: I like that notion of principle loyalty, which leaves me to ask what it is - and you talk about this, of course, in an entire book, so it's an oversimplified question for a book that tells the whole story. But what would you say far and away, speaking of principle loyalty, is what you take away in your personal life from this scandal?

Iglesias: Well, that bad things can result in good things, that don't give up the faith, that there's a plan out there. These past two years have been the most meaningful years of my life. They've been difficult. When I talked to you last year, I was unemployed, and I was out of work for seven and a half months. That wasn't fun.

It wasn't fun not having health insurance for my kids, and I've got four kids. But I never waivered in knowing that I was doing the right thing, and there's tremendous power in that.

Tavis: And might David Iglesias one day - gorgeous picture, and you got your flag pin on your lapel. That could be a nice political shot there. (Laughter) Might David Iglesias run for office one day?

Iglesias: Oh, I don't think so. It would take a series of miracles. And by the way, my kids hate that picture. (Laughter) But thank you very much, Tavis.

Tavis: Yeah, you're very welcome. The new book by David Iglesias, former U.S. attorney, "In Justice: Inside the Scandal that Rocked the Bush Administration," again, by David Iglesias. David, nice to have you on.

Iglesias: Thank you very much, great to be back.

Tavis: Good to see you.